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Post by masha on Sept 16, 2005 9:04:25 GMT -5
OK - I seem to be starting a new debate topic every day. But I keep thinking of these things that I want answers on. This one particularly. I call it " the useless owner/scary stranger " syndrome. How many times have I heard experienced dog people - trainers or breeders - tell a story in which someone has a misbehaving dog that they " cant do anything with", and the experienced dog person sorts out the problem after a 20 minute session? In this situation the owner is just too soft, allows the dog to get away with murder, doesnt know how to handle the situation whatever. The dog pulls on the leash, barks, jumps up etc. The trainer (a stranger to the dog) takes the leash, and with a couple of firm pops and growly commands has the dog in perfect control. This goes to prove (the trainer says) how you just have to know how to handle the dog, and that it is the owners fault that the dog is misbehaving. OK - fair and good, and probablly a lot of truth there. But what about this: My dog is a bright, stubborn, friendlly creature with a will as big as a bulls. I know that it works better to be firm with her, and if she feels I am being too soft she does take advantage. But consider. She knows me very well. She KNOWS that the worst I will ever do is to grab her by the scruff and shake her. I might shout. I might throw water at her (and have been known to do this.) In a worst case scenario, I might give her a bath. Now, when a trainer "takes her in hand", the situation changes. She knows that I wont do whatever....SCARY THING that this unknown, large and confident STRANGER might do. They might....well. You just dont KNOW what they might do. So she is as good as gold. The mere fact that it is a stranger makes her behave. Its an unfair advantage! Granted, I make a lot of mistakes, and a lot of her naughty tricks might have been nipped in the bud if I was better at this training thing. But I realy think that this SCARY STRANGER factor accounts for a lot of those " train the dog in 10 minutes " stories. If that trainer actually had to LIVE with that dog would it last? What do you think?
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Post by Laura on Sept 16, 2005 11:31:50 GMT -5
Yes and yes . Change SCARY to DOMINATE or ALPHA and you've got a better picture of accuracy . And herein lies part of the problem. She knows that the worst thing you'll ever do is toss a little water at her, not such an awful thing, but pretty awful for her. My dogs DON"T know what the worst thing is, and go to great strides not to find out, get it ;D? That's like telling a kid, who's screaming at you for that candy bar in the store "You'd better knock it off or you're gonna get it!" That's why those trainers get away with being alpha to everyone's dog, because they don't give it all away. They don't yell and scream at them, they don't punish them with a warning, they just do it. Quiet confidence tells the dogs that they no longer have to run the show. I've seen non-dog people get the same reaction from a pack of dogs, it's a mental state of mind.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 16, 2005 16:36:41 GMT -5
Laura you are so right with this. Take my 4 year old human child, ask Loey how LOUD and PERSISTANT he can get when we are on the phone . He knows I take very little but then again will give him chances to behave before I lower the BOOM. With my mom he is totaly different because he has NO IDEA how far he can push, so it's always GREAT BEHAVIOR FOR GRANDMA makes me look like CRAP but that's the way it is Same thing goes for dogs and I think it happens to all of us, I can take someone elses dog who they say is a PROBLEM, and work it for about 20 minutes and look at them and say "NOW WHAT IS THE PROBLEM " but with my own sometimes, like a situation Loey and I just talked about, "THE STRAIGHT SIT" anybody elses dog I can get that proofed in a short amount of time but with my own YEAH RIGHT I am the alpha to them and they are very well behavied but they also know ME and sometimes with them because of the emotional attachment I do give them to many chances I was just up north today at the other house finishing up the packing and moving, and a freind of mine who is by all rights a "Horse Whisperer" stopped over to help. He asked me if I had time to come over and take a look at an 8 year old "Apendex" (quarter horse and Throubred) he said it was giving him some trouble and he could not smooth him out. WELL OF COURSE DUMB ME SAYS "OH SURE" well I walked up to him, very nice guy, BIG, but sweet, hopped up bareback and rode him around with no problem, then I took him out on the trail to see what it was that spooked him all the time. HE NEVER SPOOKED I got him going really good, trot, canter, gallop, NO PROBLEM. I did'nt know what to tell him. He started laughing and said "Well I saw the problem it's me" he said "You walked up to him, bridled him, jumped on and rode." I said "YEAH WHAT'S THE POINT " He said " He spooked me, because I was trying to be gentle with him because he was abused and all he wanted was for me to RIDE HIM" I said "OH" Now this is a 62 year old full fledged COWBOY who can handle ANY HORSE. I know off topic sort of and long but do you see what we are getting at ;D NOW REMIND ME OF THAT WITH MY OWN PACK
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Post by Tammi21 on Sept 16, 2005 21:14:29 GMT -5
This is good stuff! Don't stop.
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Post by masha on Sept 20, 2005 1:26:05 GMT -5
This is so true, and its the hardest thing for me. And I think where this comes from, is you have to believe completely that the dog WILL obey you. I've been experimenting:
Lately she has been breaking her stays. Used to do a 3 minute out-of-sight down stay no problem (Still does it when I go into a shop, but not at the training field!). Now I realised that what I had been doing (as I put her in a stay) is visualise the last time when she broke her stay and gambolled about the field. Instead, now when I walk off I visualise her lying down and waiting for me. I keep that image in my head while I'm out of sight. Seems to help!
Except that she gets so curious about what I've been doing around the corner or behind the car that after I release her, she quickly goes and has a look. ;D
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Post by willow on Sept 20, 2005 8:10:14 GMT -5
;D Kind of like when I go somewhere without my dogs, when I come home they sniff me all over to "see" where I've been and with whom! Interesting subject though, as Tammie said, and I agree with Ann and Laura. I know I have gone a little "soft" on my dogs, because they are so good most of the time, but every once in awhile, they will push...especially my sassy, mouthy Kara! Once I assume "the stance" though, and give her "the look", I don't have to say a word, she melts and gives me a squinty eyed grin. She is such a character.
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Post by masha on Sept 21, 2005 1:36:30 GMT -5
;D Kind of like when I go somewhere without my dogs, when I come home they sniff me all over to "see" where I've been and with whom! . Yes - Its occured to me that the dogs only experience of going out the gate with me is when we go to the beach, the mountain, the forest or the park. They probably think that all those time I leave without them, I go and do similar fun things - only leaving them behind! What their idea must be of my life - one long walk. Anyway, back on topic - Ive been looking at the Leerburg site. Very interesting. I think there is a fine line between training by fear, or by intimidation, and training by asserting your will. I struggle to get that attitude of " confident and strong, dont even THINK of disobedience" rather than "screaming my head off you &*%%$#@ dog". What Ive seen happen to other people (not me of COURSE ) is that they are caring and patient for ages, and then suddenly, when the dog STIL does not listen, or disobeys one more time, they give vent to all those pent up frustrations in one big explosion of fury. Thats not asserting dominance, thats just losing control. And the dog just learns that you are unpredictable and not to be taken seriously even when you get mad.
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Post by willow on Sept 21, 2005 8:23:19 GMT -5
Getting angry doesn't solve anything. It only confuses the dog, as you said, and I think if a person finds themselves angry at the dog and yelling at them all the time, they should sit down and take a long hard look at the relationship etc. I actually had to do that with one dog I had. I got him as a puppy and that dog really tried my patience. I didn't even realize what I was doing, until one day my ever patient husband said to me: "you know, you're always angry at him. No wonder he misbehaves all the time. If you just don't like the dog, why not find a new home for him?" At first I got kind of angry at my husband and asked, "What are you talking about?" and he answered, "just listen to yourself". I did, and was that an eye opener!!! I am so grateful that my husband pointed that out to me so I could remedy the situation.
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