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Post by Laura on May 13, 2005 22:45:10 GMT -5
Folks, I'm sorry that many of you had to become engaged in a useless debate with Camp Woof, I apologize to any of you who's time may have been wasted by him. He stated that this was nothing more than an "experiment" that he and other PP trainers started to see how we would react to his crappy behavior, and that we lived up to his expectations that we "cannot deal with problem behavior like mine without invoking superior force, just like you do with your dogs. You can't accomplish anything with an animal that you can't overpower and can't inflict pain upon." I for one am appalled that someone who is supposed to be so in tune with a dog psyche that Purely Positive training is the only way to train a dog, would treat fellow human beings with such utter contempt and disregard. That doesn't say much for this man's character, let alone his dog handler skills. He is gone and will not be missed. Now back to our regularly scheduled program .
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Post by sibemom on May 16, 2005 19:38:43 GMT -5
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Post by Richard on May 16, 2005 20:40:34 GMT -5
Actually, when he said him and his other PP experts, I just figured it was his other 9 toes.....
You know it's interesting (yet disturbing) that one would have the time to go around and play stupid games like that in forums on the internet if you have a dog boarding company to keep track of...how does one find the time?
Perhaps this is all one big experiment and we're all little mice running through the maze...make my cheese mozzerella please....
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Post by Brooke on May 16, 2005 21:20:04 GMT -5
Folks, I'm sorry that many of you had to become engaged in a useless debate with Camp Woof, I apologize to any of you who's time may have been wasted by him. YEAH! It was all your fault Laura! GEEZE! You are such a great mod girl! I love ya! ;D
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Post by Laura on May 17, 2005 0:14:16 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm such a troublemaker, aren't I ;D? Actually, I just felt that I should have seen this one coming, and I didn't , but, hey, que sera sera .
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Post by willow on May 17, 2005 9:54:16 GMT -5
No, it was all my fault again!!! The discussion was going along quite peaceably until I put my 2 cents worth in and then all *&^% broke loose! What did I say? Of course, it could have been my pm to the guy. I didn't want to say anything publically to him, so I sent him a pm telling him he owed every one on this board an apology for saying we "beat" our dogs and that he and his attitude also gives "normal" rescues and "normal" rescue volunteers a bad name. When you mention "Rescue" to a lot of people they look at you like you have two heads and say Rescue people are "weird". He is the classic example of what so many rescue volunteers are like. Do you suppose that could have done it? I see all the time on other boards though, where PP people can be rude and nasty and say things like we beat our dogs and jerk on them and hurt them, and if you disagree and try to reason with them, they ask what your problem is! They also accuse us of using our barbaric methods on all dogs and of not being able to think outside the box and use gentler methods, because we are stupid and impatient and it is easier to use harsh methods than to use our brains. I don't see it that way at all. Who of us here who use training collars and corrections do not also use positive methods when we can? I don't even use training collars on the two dogs I have now, because they don't need them. I, and all of us here, use what works on that particular dog. Not so with PP people. They are the ones who use one method and one method only, even when the dog is not responding to it. They will beat their heads against a brick wall for months/years and not admit the method they are using is not working. The result is tons of untrained neurotic dogs running around out there. Of course, they will also be quick to tell you of "so and so" who has a Field trained retriever or ob competition dog who was trained strictly PP. Uh, huh! That is probably true, but what about the other thousands it didn't work on? One PP person told me she doesn't care if her dog "blows" it in the ring. She wants her dog to have "fun" and she wants to have "fun" training her dog! I have trained for competition. I had fun doing it. My dog had fun and when we went into the ring he finished with high scores. He was a young dog at the time too, because it didn't take years to accomplish. What could be more fun than that? Isn't that the reason for going into competition to begin with? If it isn't, why do it? Why not just train and not compete? O.k....I am getting down off my soap box now.
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Post by Am on May 17, 2005 16:47:47 GMT -5
I've got nothing against using PP if it's the best method for the dog and the problem concerned. But even if it obviously isn't the most appropriate method for a particular dog, I know precious few PP trainers who'll admit that. Like Willow, I find that attitude of "one size must fit all" a little worrying. Personally, I think the worst PP people are the ones who haven't actually ever tried the method you're talking about - just look at you with big eyes saying "I couldn't do that to my dog, I love him!" Laura, I think you did a great job. I just wish CampWoof would have debated civilly - I was genuinely interested in his view point, cos I like talking to folks who train with different methods. But I guess it's a lot easier to take the moral high ground, instead of admitting that you might not have all the answers. OK, I'll quit bitching now and go do some work.
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Post by willow on May 17, 2005 18:02:05 GMT -5
But I guess it's a lot easier to take the moral high ground, instead of admitting that you might not have all the answers. OK, I'll quit bitching now and go do some work. Exactly. I have found out that even if you start out "discussing civily", it isn't long before they start throwing in words like "barbaric", "cruel", "jerk and yank", "beat" etc., and that is where they lose me. I will not listen further if those terms are used. And now so as not to keep "beating a dead horse", I'm out of here too. ;D
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Post by Richard on May 17, 2005 20:28:20 GMT -5
Loey,
I don't think you did anything wrong, you just posted a thought or two...CampWoofs intent was not to hold a normal mature discussion of PP ways but more to poke the stick into the Tigers cage and see what would happen...regardless of your posts, he was on a mission to make a point(and a misguided one it was)...so when we reacted the way normal people do, he jumps in behind some psycho mumbo jumbo and makes us out to be the ones with the problems...yeah, right!
If it (his "experiment") made him feel superior in some eclectic way to us " dog beater" types (a term he bestowed upon us), then I'm sure he got his thrills while he was here.
He is truly a seagull....come in from no where, squawk and crap and then leave, never to be seen again....
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Post by willow on May 18, 2005 9:56:48 GMT -5
Thanks, Richard. Sometimes I don't know when to "let sleeping dogs lie", but I'm working on it! ;D
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Post by Richard on May 18, 2005 16:33:39 GMT -5
No need to explain further....if we didn't have people like you around how would we ever learn?
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Post by Aussienot on May 20, 2005 20:51:44 GMT -5
I wish just once we could have an actual exchange of ideas with a purely positive trainer. None of us that post here regularly are here only to prove we are right. Almost everyone on this board has shown that they are open to training that works.
But no Positive proponent yet has been able to add value to a discussion without become defensive over answers they can't provide. What has happened every time is that after the third or fourth exhange, the "Dog Beater" lable is carted out. It's just PP code for a lack of understanding about how dogs think and modifying behavior. "I don't have a reasonable answer based on experience, so I'll call you a name." I pretty much stopped that tactic when I was three.
None of them (yet) have been able to explain why their way is effective and superior enought to be universal. The ones what come here seem to be motived by zealotic moral conviction that we are wrong, but don't have a working alternative themselves, and have demonstrated no understanding of positive reinforcement. If Camp Woof is representative of the purely positive movement, I am not impressed.
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Post by willow on Jun 3, 2005 23:50:21 GMT -5
Today while checking out another forum, there was a debate going on about the head halter between a PP trainer and one like us....use what works on that particular dog. Yawn! Anyway, at one point the "reasonable" trainer brought up the fact that even the manufacturer of the head halter has "cautions" on it, and the PP "trainer" ( and I always use the term "trainer" lightly)when discussing PP people) said, (in effect) ..."I don't care what the manufacturer says, this is the way I use them and they are safe and effective"...Yet...in a previous post when the "reasonable" trainer said, again in effect "it is not the tool used, but the one using it that determines whether it is cruel or not", she still insisted the pinch collar was something she would never use, because people misuse them. They always bring up instances where a pinch was left on and grew into the dogs neck, (I have seen more flat collars or a plain chain that has done that than pinch collars!) or the dog was tied outside wearing a pinch collar etc. etc., but when it is brought up about the neck/spinal injuries caused by head halters, they dont' even address that and insist they are "safe" and more humane than pinch collars. I just had a "run in" with a couple of members of the Lab rescue concerning "policy" on ALL family members meeting the dog they want to adopt, but that is a whole other story. What has happened to "common sense" and "flexability due to circumstances? I think I will start a new thread tomorrow on Rescues being so rigid on "policy" that they forget about "real life".
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Post by Laura on Jun 4, 2005 0:08:43 GMT -5
I just got involved in one of those debates today myself, start the thread, woman ;D!!
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