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Post by Mom2ABxr on Jun 30, 2004 19:11:14 GMT -5
As a Boxer owner, neither of my girls have cropped ears, but both have docked tails. Personally, I love the look of the natural ears! I agree with an earlier poster, 'it wouldn't look like a' boxer 'with a natural tail'. But of course, you don't see too many, do we?
In the US at this time, to show certain breeds, they have to look a certain way, and we except that, because someone decided that was the standard. Maybe just a litle presumptuous...
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 10, 2004 19:40:21 GMT -5
Cropped ears? No way! Not even talking about how much pain it would cause the poor dog, I LOVE FLOPPY EARS! ;D I love boxers with the natural ears..they help show the expression of the dog better, in my opinion.
Docked tails? Hmm...while I would never have it done to any of my dogs (my dobe has a docked tail, but he came like that from the shelter), I can't honestly say yes or no to it. I don't know enough about it...how much it hurts the dog, what they have to go through, if its typically necessary to prevent injuries...I'm not educated in that field, so I can't give a good answer to it.
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GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
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Post by GWPSage on Sept 10, 2004 22:54:16 GMT -5
To clarify the Aussie tail question, most purebred aussies are not even born with tails. (Like manx kitties) They are called rumpies they are actually missing that vertebrae. Breeders pay a mint for those dogs hopeing it will pass on to their litters. The practice of docking tails is fashion, there is no breed enhancement purpose for it. If they are not born without it leave it there. The exception is dew claws they are not safe to leave on a dog.
I have been reading this book titled The Dogs Mind it is authored by Dr Bruce Fogle He brings up an interesting point in tail docking. Hopefully I dont lose anyone with this I am going to quote the book. (Relevant parts) So everyone HANG ON.
The speed of transmission of informaiton from brain cell to brain cell and throughout the dogs nervous system depends upon whether nerves have developed a fatty substance called myelin to protect them. Myelination and maturation of the dog's brain is infinitely faster. Like us there is virtually no myelination at birth. An unmyelinated nerve transmits impulses at around 2 meters per second (4.5 mph) which is why a pips response to almost any type of stimulus is so slow. Pups certainly have less sensation and this is the reason that tails are normally amputated when they are less than three days old. It is wrong, however to say they dont feel pain when this cosmetic procedure is carried out. It might appear they dont feel pain, but this is due to the delay in their response because their nerves arent myelinated yet. A large myelinated nerve fibre transmits impulses at 120 meters per second (270 mph), sixty times as fast, which is the reason tails cant easily be docked later.
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Post by Willow on Sept 11, 2004 7:05:31 GMT -5
Hi Sage,
May I ask where you got your information? I have heard just the opposite! In the litter of 7 Aussie puppies I was going to get one from, there were at least several with full tails and the rest had part tails, so my understanding is it is more "common" for Aussie puppies to be born with full or part tails, than no tails.
As to the whether they feel the docking or not. Of course they do and I'm sure it hurts, because they are living animals, but any Vet worth his "salt" will give them a local anaesthetic before docking.
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Post by amyjo on Sept 11, 2004 7:38:20 GMT -5
My understanding is that Aussie's are born all three ways...full, partial and none...but the reason for the docking traditionally is not cosmetic. Supposedly the tail is of a different texture and difficlut to groom which is not a plus for a working dog. Also - aussies work large herd animals like cattle and they work in close- nipping legs etc...so potential for injury is high. I would never dock the tail of a pet Aussie - but I do love my wiggle butt who came that way! ;D
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Post by Willow on Sept 11, 2004 8:11:08 GMT -5
Now there is a controversy going around about front dews for herding dogs too. The ones against removal are saying the dogs have more stability on quick turns if the front dews are intact. For this reason the breeder I contacted did not have the puppies front dews removed, although she has no personal opinion on if this is really true or not.
All I know is that it is a pain to clip the nail in that front dew if they are tight to the leg, and if they are not, they are not only very ugly looking, but can get caught on stuff and ripped partially off.
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Post by sibemom on Sept 11, 2004 9:26:36 GMT -5
When I got Willow I was concerned about the fact she still had her front Dew Claws. I asked the vet and the breeder and got the same response, which was that is is a breed standard, but of course I could have them taken off it I wanted. Her's are very tight to her leg and yeah a pain to clip but I am leaving them there. With Blade I had his taken off standard or not, because with pulling they can be a hazard. His were done when I got him fixed and he never had a problem. I still would never crop an ear though. Tails well I guess because I grew up with springers, and it was done VERY EARLY I don't have a problem with that
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GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
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Post by GWPSage on Sept 11, 2004 9:41:24 GMT -5
Okay most wasnt a good word. And you are all correct some are born with a tail, partial tails etc... I know two Aussie breeders, one breeds mini aussies shes been doing it for years and hasnt had to have a tail removed yet. At least that is what she told me last time I asked her. The other breeder, has been in business over 20 years, he breeds really nice working dogs. I also got the same information from him. (Not any of my "friends" if you know what I mean.) My question is why aussies and queenslands if there was a hazard to the dog (getting its tail stepped on) why dont they doc shepherds and border collies? Do they herd differently? Hazel those two bc/ crosses are so pretty!
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Post by sibemom on Sept 11, 2004 10:14:23 GMT -5
I can anwser the question about the GSD, they do herd much different then the Aussie. They are not in quite as close and usualy do not nip at the heels as much. The best way to describe it is that they BLOCK and TURN their herd without getting in as close by pivoting on their back legs and staying in one spot, while moving the front of the body back and forth. They too use a slight stare like the BC, and are very vocal in their work. To add a little more if you ever watched a herding competition, you will see that the GSD will go more for the front of the animal almost like a head to head. Mine got kicked and stepped on a few times, but he handled the stock as I described above.
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GWPSage
Trained
Back in the saddle again
Posts: 201
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Post by GWPSage on Sept 11, 2004 11:23:03 GMT -5
Thanks sibemom! I actually have never seen a aussie or queensland stock dog work. Although my friends little aussie would grab the horses tail wraps while they were running and go for a ride! The dog never got hurt, we used to belly ski on our horses tails in the irrigation. They were all used to it. Conka and I are going to fly up to Ohio to visit a friend I had there that trained herding GSD's though she is not from "herding" lines it would be fun to give it a shot. My horse, Conka and I are planning to spend two weeks on my friends ranch working sheep. Should be good for all of us, I cant wait!
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Post by amyjo on Sept 11, 2004 12:12:41 GMT -5
BC's typically handle smaller flocks in wide open spaces...they herd by staring and stalking. Aussies work bigger animals in bigger groups and they do it in close...so yep it is a different style.
Thanks for the description of the GSD herding behavior Ann...didn't know that.
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Post by Kona on Dec 8, 2004 19:50:46 GMT -5
I used to take care of a Great Dane that had cropped ears but a long, natural tail. Guess what? One of the ears healed poorly and stayed flopped down flat against the skull, and in addition she developed a horrible case of "happy tail." The poor girl bled constantly from the tip of her tail from constantly banging it against walls and furniture. She would have been much better off if they had left the ears and removed the tail!
I don't believe in cropping except to fix a medical condition, although I would remove a dewclaw from a puppy if I could see that is was only attached by skin. Loose dewclaws with no muscle control can be a real danger to the dog.
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Post by nomadofthehills on Dec 15, 2004 21:58:37 GMT -5
My dog has a short tail, dunno if it was docked or not...
He aslo "uses" his dewclaws, LIKE THUMBS ;D ;D
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Post by Willow on Dec 16, 2004 9:31:22 GMT -5
I used to take care of a Great Dane that had cropped ears but a long, natural tail. I don't believe, according to breed standard, it is customary to dock a Great Danes tail and have personally never seen a GD with a docked tail.
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Post by Rowan on Dec 16, 2004 13:58:33 GMT -5
I am not against the owners who choose to do it, I am sure I would most likely choose the unaltered look if I did own one of them soley based on how hard it is to find a good vet that can do them correctly.
The main issue here is having your right to choose, taken away and I am against that.
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