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Post by maybel on Apr 23, 2005 16:47:27 GMT -5
we have a 1 year old female lab. we started basic training (sit, stay, come, laydown, fetch, no, down... that kind of stuff) at 9 weeks. i want to continue reinforcing what she already knows how to do, teach her better manners (like not jumping on people and pulling on the leash), and especially work on improving her retrieval skills (the bird dummy i've been using is full of holes and she likes to chew on it while carrying it). we've read several books that friends and family swear by: 21 Days to a Well Trained Dog (WAY too passive method; tried it, didn't work) and The Labrador Shooting Dog by Mike Gould (which I think was a clossal waste of money). I'm looking for a book that details training of basic and advanced skills, preferably with pictures. I am not interested in the clicker method. Any suggestions?
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Post by Kona on Apr 23, 2005 23:06:52 GMT -5
I'm curious about why you didn't like that book. It's my understanding that it's pretty much a standard text for gun dogs, so I guess maybe you just wanted an advanced obedience book.
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Post by Aussienot on Apr 24, 2005 0:38:23 GMT -5
Ok, help me here a little. We know what you've rejected. What training style do you use?
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Post by Laura on Apr 24, 2005 1:08:14 GMT -5
Aussie's correct, we need to know what you've been using previously. But, check out Dobbs, they specialize in the working Retriever and have some excellent articles about specific training issues with Retrieving and hunting dogs www.dobbsdogs.com/library/index.html
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Post by Kona on Apr 24, 2005 14:16:25 GMT -5
Just a note to anyone thinking about the James Lamb Free book, it was written many decades ago when the Koehler-type methods were prevalent. Here's a quote: "Most retrievers can take and like a lot more punishment than they ever need, without any danger of being cowed. But if you should be unlucky enough to get one who can't take as much as he needs, and shows signs of being cowed - then you'd better get rid of him at once..." In other words, get rid of a dog that is intimidated by violence? There are also instructions for hitting and for lifting the dog in the air to give her a good shake.
Also, Richard Wolters has written many books on dog training (including a book on how to teach your family dog to “protect” you), and his methods can be harsh, too. He gives advice about hitting your dog to "teach the dog that you mean business."
I’m not a fan of the “waiting around for your dog to do the right thing and then lavishing praise on him” school, but I think that we’ve come far enough in our understanding of dogs that physical violence is not needed for training the family dog obedience.
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Post by amyjo on Apr 24, 2005 15:28:10 GMT -5
Well- I know Loey well enough to know she doesn't train that way - so there must be some pearls of wisdom in those books too?
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Post by willow on Apr 24, 2005 15:37:11 GMT -5
Kona, have you read any "modern" retriever training books where they put the dog up on a table, tie him up short and put a cord around its toe and also use ear pinches as well as an e-collar while up on a table or bench? That's why I won't recommend any of these books to anyone.
Sorry, but give me Lambs Free and Wolters anyday! But you are right. I shouldn't have posted them here, because People have to have common sense with these books as well as any others, so I will delete the post to make everyone happy.
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Post by Kona on Apr 25, 2005 0:23:47 GMT -5
O . . . K . . .
My point was simply that, whereas many years ago the harsher methods prevailed in training books, these days there is a wider variety of methods to choose from. There are recent books out that still utilize harsh training methods, and there are silly books that seem to imply that all it takes is good intentions and happy thoughts to make your dog behave perfectly. Which of course means that we need to do some research before buying a book, that's all. With that thought in mind I quoted from the books that you recommended. Sorry if that bothered you.
As to your question, "Kona, have you read any 'modern' retriever training books where they put the dog up on a table, tie him up short and put a cord around its toe and also use ear pinches as well as an e-collar while up on a table or bench?" Actually, no. And if I ever do I certainly won't recommend them here.
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Post by willow on Apr 25, 2005 7:13:03 GMT -5
As to your question, "Kona, have you read any 'modern' retriever training books where they put the dog up on a table, tie him up short and put a cord around its toe and also use ear pinches as well as an e-collar while up on a table or bench?" Actually, no. And if I ever do I certainly won't recommend them here. So now you know there are much harsher methods being used than the ones in the books I recommended, and why I didn't recommend the newer books. I also forget that most people do not have the common sense to use the excellent training methods in these books and disregard the "punishment" parts, so they will either be horrified that they are even in the book, or will start to apply them in their training. However, my mistake was to recommend any retriever training books here. This is not a retriever training site, and what I usually do is steer people to a rt site and recommend they also join a local retriever training club. The world of retriever training is a whole different world, of which most people on sites such as this don't have a clue about. I will not make that mistake again.
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Post by Kona on Apr 25, 2005 13:04:49 GMT -5
"So now you know there are much harsher methods being used than the ones in the books I recommended, and why I didn't recommend the newer books."
Oh I'm very aware that there are books out there that say all kinds of crazy stuff. I was just answering your question as to whether or not I had read any retriever books where they suggest tying a dog to a table while simultaneously utilizing three separate methods of inflicting pain. But as I said, if I ever do I certainly won't recommend them here.
Are you saying that there are no modern books that you would recommend that don't describe painful methods like hitting and shaking, and the authors don't discuss how much punishment a dog needs?
"I also forget that most people do not have the common sense to use the excellent training methods in these books and disregard the 'punishment' parts, so they will either be horrified that they are even in the book, or will start to apply them in their training."
Your sarcasm aside, if you recommend a book that you feel has some good points and some bad points, why not discuss them both? You mentioned some books that you obviously thought had some good points, I mentioned that they also had some questionable content, and you react by pulling your post and talking about people's lack of common sense. I don't get it. Did you feel like I was personally attacking you? I'm sorry if that's the impression that I gave you.
I collect and read books from many time periods and many points of view. Pearls of wisdom can be gathered from almost any source, but endorsing the entire source rather than the truth itself can be confusing to those who respect your opinion.
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Post by maybel on Apr 25, 2005 13:18:33 GMT -5
Firstly, Gould talks a LOT about all these great dogs he's trained, all the great methods he's invented, and why he's a better trainer than others. But what he hardly mentions is HOW the average person goes about training their dog to hunt. As to the current method of training I'm using.... I don't know what you'd call it, but here's what I've been doing. No physical violence or threatening of violence. I use a raised voice when she's doing something really bad (potentially dangerous situations) which she responds to well. I have not attempted the table and string around the toe method recomended by Gould and don't plan to. It sounds really involved with more work than I want to do (building a table and line and ropes...) and kinda dumb to me. I like her to think that bad consequences for her actions comes from the environment and not me. For example: when riding in the back of the truck, if she gets up on the wheel, the truck gets shaky and throws her off (as a side note, this was done very gently at very slow speeds with someone else in the back with her when she was young and we have had no problems since), it's more comfortable to walk on a leash close to me than far away (currently working on this with very good results via a choke collar and squirt gun), human ears do not hear whining, basically, If you go out in the rain, you're gonna get wet kinda thing. I think this tactic will not work for everything I want to teach her though. Any other kind of advice would be helpful. Expecially how to get her to quit chewing on the birds she retrieves! My neighbors suggest wrapping a dummy in barbed wire, but I don't think I want to to that, except maybe as a very last resort.
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Post by Laura on Apr 25, 2005 13:28:31 GMT -5
Barbed wire, NO. Clear plastic carpet runner cut to size and taped to the dummy, YES. I don't work with working Retrievers as a rule, but it sounds like you have to go back and redo some of the basics, like the hold. Hold, is just that, hold the article and not treat it like a wad of chaw ;D. Try some of these articles and see if they help. www.dobbsdogs.com/library/retrievers/index.html
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Post by willow on Apr 25, 2005 13:32:03 GMT -5
Maybel, go to: working-retriever.comand go to their training boards. There are some good retriever people there. I also suggest you check around locally for a Retriever training club. You will get a lot of help. You have to be very careful about wrapping a "dummy" with barbed wire, because some dogs will refuse to retrieve again after clamping down on them. There are better ways, but the best is not to let it get started to begin with by letting the dog play/chew on the training dummies, and by not throwing balls or sticks for them etc.
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Post by willow on Apr 25, 2005 14:00:42 GMT -5
Kona, with Maybels post, I knew he/she knew something about Field training Retrievers and could decide for herself/himself the type of corrections they are comfortable with, and that's why I didn't go into the "punishment part" of the books. My mistake, but I honestly didn't think it was that big a deal when talking to a retriever person, and yes, I did get on the defensive when someone who knows nothing about training retriever's for the field, jumped in and started to judge the books because of the discussion in them about corrections.
Believe me, serious Retriever people who train for the Field use some sort of corrections, most of which I don't agree with, but that is why I say it was a mistake to recommend those book publically, and to discuss Field Training publically on this type of forum and should be taken privately and to a Retriever Training forum.
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Post by maybel on Apr 25, 2005 17:38:07 GMT -5
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