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Post by Aussienot on Jan 5, 2005 17:21:51 GMT -5
I bought a copy of the British magazine Dog's Life because it featured an article on 'Training Discs'. I am trying to teach Finn to catch a frisbee, and mistakenly thought this might be helpful. Felt profoundly un-informed when I realised what Training Discs actually are.
Training Discs are a set of four or five small, thin round metal discs, linked together with a metal ring, attached to a holding loop. They are dropped on the ground to interrupt unwanted behavior.
The article explains in some detail that they are not punishment - they are a "non-rewarding experience".
The article goes to great lengths to explain how these fit into a Positive training plan. I'll quote just one paragraph from the article: "The dog learns to associate the distinctive noise made by the disks when they are dropped on the ground or clinked together with a non-rewarding experience. This means you can interrupt undesirable behaviors without using corrective punishment. The dog will associate the noise with a non-reward, not with the person making the sound. The clank sound of the discs is a signal to him to stop whatever he is doing and return to the owner when he can then be rewarded."
Has anyone ever used them? In my opinion, Training Discs are just the purely positive version of the old 'throw chains'. I put this thread here in Positive (not debate) because I want to understand. Can someone who trains positive to explain this tool to me.
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BeTrue
Trained
Banned
Posts: 217
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Post by BeTrue on Jan 6, 2005 8:24:22 GMT -5
I train positive, and never, ever heard of training discs. I look forward to someone hopefully knowing what these are, out of curiousity.
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Post by Rowan on Jan 6, 2005 11:05:40 GMT -5
simply a distraction method so redirection can be applied more successfully.
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Post by Willow on Jan 6, 2005 13:22:35 GMT -5
It sounds like just another "gimmick" to me to part us from our money!
I agree, that the discs are just a distraction like a throw chain or penny can would be, however; in the book, "How to be your dogs best friend", by the Monks of New Skeet, they suggest using a set of keys in the same way people now use a clicker, to reinforce "good" behavior by associating the rattle of keys with "good" things. They call it "conditioning the dog". After the dog is "conditioned" by rattling the keys at mealtime etc., they also use them to stop unwanted behavior by rattling them if the dog is about to or does an unwanted behavior. Other than rattling the keys at mealtime, there are no food "rewards" given, as is done so extensively today in training.
The Monks suggest a certain combination of different metal keys to achieve the sound the dogs respond to the best.
Which raises the question, so why not just use your key ring as a distraction? It would save $$$$.
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BeTrue
Trained
Banned
Posts: 217
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Post by BeTrue on Jan 6, 2005 13:37:02 GMT -5
Willow---I don't really understand what the keys are being used for then. If they're rung before mealtime, they become a good thing. So if they're rung when the dog is doing something wrong, won't he think its a "good thing"?
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Post by Kona on Jan 6, 2005 14:13:50 GMT -5
Training discs have been around forever, and I've never known anyone who uses them. When used simply as a noise maker it's the same as a penny shaker can, and when used to toss at the dog it's the same as a throw chain. Silly waste of money.
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Post by Kona on Jan 6, 2005 14:17:27 GMT -5
I don't remember the monks talking about using keys that way, but I'm way overdue to read their books again.
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Post by Willow on Jan 6, 2005 16:36:05 GMT -5
Kona, it's in the chapter "Playing Pavolv". It starts on page 81 in my book.
BeTrue: I'm not sure about your question...you'd have to ask the Monks. ;D
Here's what they say: "The basic idea behind this sound conditioning is to precede desired behavior with a distinctive sound. (Italics theirs). They go on to say:
"Keys are used here since they provide a strong, high-pitched sound that is irrestible to the dog once it is properly conditioned. Hand clapping, whistling, and cooing are in another realm, obviously proceedign from a person. To these specifically human sounds, a dog may or may not respond, depending on the current state of the relationship between the dog and the person making the sound. Keys or whistles are neutral, and therefore more effective.
They then give an example of your dog not coming when called and how to use the keys. Unlike the clicker training of today they also say: "Do not make a show out of this, and preferably do not let your dog see you jingle the keys."
It is the same for negative behavior. The person hides and jingles the keys when the dog is about to or is engaged in negative behavior.
Note too, that they do not throw the keys near the dog to "startle it", as is done with throw chains and penny cans, plus with a penny can you shake it in full view of the dog, so it connects the noise with you, but in their key method, they do not.
You would have to read the full chapter and draw your own conclusion, I suppose. ;D
The only "neutral" object I use with my dogs is a whistle for the recall when we are on our walks and I have found that even with Rescue dogs who do not respond to your voice, having learned they do not have to come when you call, will respond to the whistle, so I think they were on to something. ;D
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Post by Kona on Jan 6, 2005 16:47:16 GMT -5
Willow - thank you! I just picked up the new, fully revised and updated printing of the book last week so the timing here is good.
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Post by Rowan on Jan 6, 2005 20:13:05 GMT -5
lol smacking your lips works well too, like the sound of chomping on food, all dogs know the sound of eatting and will break attention to see what you have.
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