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Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 26, 2004 8:25:08 GMT -5
Okay, well, what does he love to work for? Every dog has something, and most dogs WILL work for treats if you find the right one. What kinds have you tried so far? Boiled chicken, left-over steak peices, hotdogs, cheese sticks, cheerios....there are so many different treats to try, and considering you might have a finicky eater on your hand, make it a challenge to find something. ;D Make sure NOT to clicker train him after he's already eaten by the way. The best time to do it is early in the morning before he's had breakfast, and again later in the evening before supper. This website gives 101 reinforcers you can use, so it might help you out: clickertraining.com/training/clicker_basics/index.htm?loaditem=101reinforcers&itemnumber=9&salesitem=101reinforcers_s*edited just to say that they recommend using raisins and grapes on that page, but I wouldn't considering they can cause liver problems, and so on. Just wanted to point that out, just in case somebody looks at it and decides to use them.
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Post by Willow on Aug 26, 2004 11:14:55 GMT -5
I see a couple of problems and here they are.
Your timing can be off with a clicker, because our reflexes are not always the quickest, but as Amyjo said...my voice is always with me and when one of my dogs do something I don't want them to do, my "Ah, ah, ah, " is instantaneous. Likewise, when they do what I want, my "Good dog", or "yes" is also instantaneous. It comes with experience, so this garbage of a person being able to click a clicker faster than say the word, is just simply not true.
A clicker is just a "training tool" (and I use the term loosely) thought up by someone by which to make a lot of $$$$, because there are so many out there looking for faster, easier ways to train and where no "corrections" are needed.
The illustration about going across the street as a child.
When my youngest son was 2 yrs. old, one day I turned away for a second, and I found him standing in the middle of the road that ran in front of our house. We lived on a hill and any cars coming from the one direction would not be able to see him in time to stop.
I still shudder to think of what "could" have happened.
So what did I do? Did I call him off the road and that was it?
Did I call him off the road and give him a cookie for doing what was right? Or did I:
run as fast as I could, physically get him off the road, tell him not to do that again and give him a swat on the behind for emphasis?
Being the "corporal punisher" that I am, I did the third thing, and he never did it again.
In your illustration about crossing the road. Of course just blowing the whistle isn't going to get the point across, but if the whistle is followed by a correction for disobeying your command, they will understand it.
I have trained many dogs to a whistle and they are trained by blowing the whistle and given a treat. This works to teach them what you want, to come to you, but they aren't coming because you blew the whistle, they are coming for the treat, and eventually they are going to blow you off, because there is going to be a bigger reward for not listening to the whistle than a treat, and you are going to have to give them a correction to make them understand fully what is expected.
Elementary.
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Post by ripley on Aug 26, 2004 15:18:51 GMT -5
Willow, that's my view on it, absolutely. I know my dog very well, and I KNOW that he is not a very drivey dog. He likes his toys and treats, but if there is something to bark at, or a small animal to dig for, he's going to blow off a command, no matter how great the reward, because to him, nothing is better than barking at strangers or digging for gophers. Thanks for the link, Iluvmypup! I'll start getting creative... My trouble is that my dog eats an ounce of something that disagrees with him and it's the equivalent of a big dog eating a pound of it!
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Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 26, 2004 15:23:10 GMT -5
Your right...the timing CAN be off for the clicker. It takes time, and practice. I've gotten pretty good, but only because I've been clicker training for a long time. Remember though, the clicker is only used to teach NEW things. I use the clicker to teach the SIT, for example, for only 2 days tops. After that its up to my voice, praise, games, and treats. I use my voice sometimes too. For example, if I were teaching a puppy to walk loosely on leash, each time the leash loosened, I would say YES! and keep walking as his 'life reward'. For an older dog, I might click and treat, since the habit has been reinforced for so long. People and dogs are different. If they were the same, we could use the example that dogs should always get treats for working, since us, as humans, expect a paycheck for when we work. ;D You probably did the right thing for your son. I'm not at all for those "if you do that one more time, Johnny, I'm putting you in your room" type of parents. I think the most annoying thing is when parents give their kids threats, with no action following after it. The kids grow up to be disobedient brats, in my opinion. But I've found that kids and dogs are TOTALLY different in the way we train them.
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Post by ripley on Aug 26, 2004 15:27:14 GMT -5
I've actually found one steady similarity. Let's say I have a kid. If I ask my kid to do something, let's say, pick up her toys, and she does it without arguing or refusing, she'll get a reward for it.. it doesn't have to be a huge one, but she'll get some sort of positive reinforcement. If she sits on her butt and tells me "NO!", I'm going to either take her toys away completely or give her some form of negative reinforcement. Dogs can easily blow off commands, I actually heard a lady say earlier that dogs don't know how to disobey. Hah. She never met Ripley!
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HazelNutMeg
Trained
We Make a Hell of a Team!
Posts: 335
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Post by HazelNutMeg on Sept 2, 2004 1:08:37 GMT -5
I'm not so sure if we should be comparing people and animals here! I was just complaining tonight about how my dog "listens" better than my boyfriend (long story) I'm not against the clicker, but I do rarely use it. Coal's a clicker nutt. The second there's a click his ears are up and he's looking for a treat! But as a "teenager", I personally do NOT want to wear a clicker around my wrist/belt. I had one on my wrist during art class, it was a real hassel and everyone kept taking it to click which got VERY irritating for everyone else in the class! So I do NOT want to be carying a clicker everywhere. Coal however, IS an even BIGGER nut for toys, so I find that works well as long as he knows he's going to get played with, I don't even have to HAVE the toy with me. If we're outside and he chases after a squirrel I tell him "Coal! Lets go play ball! Where's your ball?" I'm not bribing him necisarly, I'm telling him that there is a better thing to do than chase squirrels. If it was a more serious situation however, I would be going and getting him and correcting him like Willow with her son Ripley - you say he's a little dog with a little stomach, well I believe that, I've had a little dog, and concider yourself lucky! I break Coal's treats up pretty small as it is, but any smaller and he'll take my hand off he's got a BIG MOUTH! So why not break up the food smaller since he is a smaller dog with a MUCh smaller mouth than my big nosed Coal! Also, if you are trianing a lot on a daily basis why not use his food as a reward? He may not really get it right away, but once he realizes it's his food or he doesn't eat, I'm sure he'll react the same way to working for food as Coal does for treats. I've seen/read about a lot of working dogs (Drug sniffing ect.) actually work for their food, not extra treats. I think that's great so your dog doesn't get fat too Just my two cents ;D
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 2, 2004 11:43:09 GMT -5
Hazelnutmeg---yep, people clicking here and there can get pretty annoying... I don't wear a clicker with me everywhere I go. I usually just use the clicker for one training session, which is enough for my dogs to catch on...after that, the clicker is put away for the next command/trick to teach. Since your Coal is so toy motivated (which your VERY lucky for, I might add ;D ), you could teach him that the click means playtime, treats, or any other thing he loves. Coal reminds me so much of one of my black labs I used to own...he looks a lot like him.
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Post by ripley on Sept 2, 2004 17:49:09 GMT -5
I went on Karen Pryor's site and I'm going to order a few clickers to use for Dakota.... Rather than spend $8 for one at PetSmart. (Seriously, they charge $8 for the I-Clicker!) I think Dakota will be great at it. He's aware of noise but not startled by it, so I'm going to give clicker training a good, fair shot. Thanks for your advice, Iluvmypup!
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 2, 2004 19:17:29 GMT -5
I-Clicks are so pricey...I could have ordered them over amazon for $2.00, but the shipping makes it come up to $6.00. Anyways, I think I like the good, ol' fashioned clicker. The only bonus to the I-Click is in the winter, when you're wearing gloves, you can sitll 'click'. If you ever have any questions, you know who to ask.
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Post by ripley on Sept 2, 2004 20:41:17 GMT -5
Yeah.. I would use the I-Click for Ripley's sake, so he wouldn't have to hear the LOUD click, click, click when I'm working with Dakota.
Shipping is what really gets ya... I buy in bulk, so it's really not a huge problem with me.
In fact, I just spent awhile on Ebay and bought 84 medium-size greenies for $50 and I got I think $5 shipping because I also bought a very large crate from the same store.. ($20 shipping, $50 for the crate, which is a GREAT deal..)
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 3, 2004 12:39:56 GMT -5
Wow! That is a good deal. I normally spend $5 on ONE greenie, so my dogs only get it rarely. ;D
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Post by ripley on Sept 4, 2004 17:04:20 GMT -5
Yeah, really... Ripley loves the things, so we decided to spring for a whole box of them.. I wonder if they go stale after awhile. They're individually packaged...
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Post by Iluvmypup on Sept 4, 2004 17:11:10 GMT -5
I would think they would stay fresh. I'm sure the ones at pet stores stay there for quite a while before they change them. And, if worse comes to worse, you could always sell them for $5 a peice.
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Post by ripley on Sept 4, 2004 17:17:38 GMT -5
Yep, I guess I could. Now that I think about it, I was kinda stupid and ordered a slightly smaller size than Dakota should have.. (I got the 'regular' ones instead of the 'large' or 'jumbo') Oh well, if I need to I guess I could always order like 20 of the bigger ones as he grows up. Greenies are a lifesaver around here. If Ripley's being a pain in the butt, we just say "Ripley, wanna GREENIE?" and he runs right to the jar that we keep the greenies in.. And then he sits down and chews for about an hour.. Anything that can keep that little terror still for an hour is worth any amount of money.
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Post by Kona on Jan 6, 2005 14:49:41 GMT -5
"Your timing can be off with a clicker, because our reflexes are not always the quickest, but as Amyjo said...my voice is always with me and when one of my dogs do something I don't want them to do, my "Ah, ah, ah, " is instantaneous. Likewise, when they do what I want, my "Good dog", or "yes" is also instantaneous. It comes with experience, so this garbage of a person being able to click a clicker faster than say the word, is just simply not true." Here are two things to consider: 1. I hear people praise their dogs all the time. The first time the dog does something right, the owner says "good." The second time the owner says “Good Boy!" The third time, the owner gets all excited and says "Yeah! What a good boy you are!!" In other words, there is no consistency in the praise, even though the voice is there "every single time." The clicker sounds exactly the same, whether you are happy or frustrated or tired or thrilled. 2. If your reflexes aren't the quickest, it doesn't matter what you use to signal the dog that he's done well. Slow is slow, whether it's your voice or a clicker or anything else. For the dog that doesn't like the sound of the clicker, there is a clicker that has an adjustable volume. Here's a link. Hope this helps. www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806328&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023689&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302032915&bmUID=1105040662265
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