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Post by ripley on Aug 6, 2004 18:08:51 GMT -5
Any advice for clicker training a dog that despises the clicker?
Ripley hates the noise of the clicker, even when it's associated with a treat. He just glares at the hand holding the clicker and refuses to work until I take it off my wrist and put it away, out of his sight. I've muffled the noise, even bought a little clicker that is supposed to make a lessened click, and he still gives it the hateful look.
Is there a non-clicker alternative with the same effect? I'm currently just using a change in voice tone, from the loud-ish sharp voice I use for his agility commands to a "Gooooooooooooooooooooooooood!" and treat/praise/ball. Can a word have the same effect as a clicker? I'm going to change the word from "good" since that's used too often, but before I do I was wondering if it's the same deal, just one noise to recognize a correct action?
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Post by amyjo on Aug 6, 2004 19:15:39 GMT -5
It is the same ...I have been using "Yay!" - there is nothing special about the clicking noise..as you have already discovered - the dog isn't naturally in love with the sound. Is effectiveness in training is that it is helpful in marking the precise moment you want to reward and bridging the gap to the reward - supposedly we are faster with our hands than our voices...also the sound the clicker makes is short in duration so you have less of a chance of marking the wrong behavior. I think one short, well timed sound is fine if your dog doesn't like the clicker. The clicker is just a tool - the principals behind clicker training are applicable without the tool and are used by all kinds of trainers all the time.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 6, 2004 19:22:02 GMT -5
While I sem-agree with Amyjo, there is a difference. Say for example you had a jumping dog. The second all four feet were on the ground, you might get excited and say "YES"! BUT, by the time you say it, has he jumped again? With the clicker, you can be positive (considering that you've practiced timing) that you'll click the exact moment. After all that, the dog begins to work for the sound of the click because he knows whats coming AFTER it. Who cares if the treat is on the table? He knows you'll get it for him because you just clicked. What brand of clicker do you have? I don't like the Petco ones...the petsmarts are much better, while the ones availabe from Karen Pryor are the BEST. You can always use a pen as a 'clicker'. Just snap it, and its nice and soft sounding. Don't worry, its natural for dogs to freak out by the sound of the clicker at first. That eventually fades away, and be sure to use high value treats. If she still freaks out by the sound, just wrap a rag around your 'clicker hand' so it muffles the noise. Good luck!
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Post by sibemom on Aug 6, 2004 19:25:05 GMT -5
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Post by ripley on Aug 6, 2004 21:45:29 GMT -5
Sibemom, I actually used a clicker as a "NO" correction with Buster for a few months when he was going through an annoying dominance phase. Thanks for the suggestions! I have a clicker called the "I-Click" that has since been chewed on and one of the PetSmart ones.
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Post by amyjo on Aug 6, 2004 21:51:44 GMT -5
While I sem-agree with Amyjo, there is a difference. Say for example you had a jumping dog. The second all four feet were on the ground, you might get excited and say "YES"! BUT, by the time you say it, has he jumped again? With the clicker, you can be positive (considering that you've practiced timing) that you'll click the exact moment. If you are watching for all feet on the ground why is it sooo much harder to say "yes" or "yay" than to click? If you have to practice timing with the clicker - you can practice it with your voice. And you always have your voice with you. I don't want to train only when I have a clicker... I rarely have training "sessions" I train throughout the day. So for me it just isn't something I ever intend to do... And if the dog refuses to work with a clicker than why burn the energy? Use that time/ effort to train something fun! The principals of Operant and Classical Conditioning and conditioned reinforcers were around long before clickers. ANYTHING can be a conditioned reinforcer. Its all about the timing.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 7, 2004 9:50:44 GMT -5
Yes, but sometimes voices tend to get a dog excited, and causes them to jump more. The clicker however, signals that he did EXACTLY what you wanted him to, and in that situation, a dog who has been jumping all his life can learn not to in just one training session. If you train througout the day, then whats so hard about keeping a clicker attached to your belt? Besides, I don't use the clicker for everything. Commands like SIT, or DOWN can go a lot faster teaching it with the clicker, but I don't use it for every dog since not all owners want to use the clicker. It takes a little longer, but its perfectly fine as the long as the owners don't mind. I tend to fade the clicker really quickly. I might click for the first 10 sits, but after that, once he understands, the clicker is either saved to teach the STAY, or is faded entirely. The clicker shouldn't be used for a negative thing. Dogs get accustomed to noises after a while and will soon ignore the fact that the clicker makes a weird noise but no bad or good thing comes after it. That means they'll just go through all that bad stuff again, and that the clicker did not make a lasting effect, considering that he never got treats, but rather was tought to hate the clicker.
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Post by amyjo on Aug 7, 2004 11:20:42 GMT -5
Okay - here is the thing. I have a high prey drive dog - which means I also carry "prey items" like tugs and balls in addition to treats. The last thing I need or want is one more thing to carry around. I would rather use my voice as a "bridge" and get the reward to my dog as fast as possible. Just because it takes you longer to train with out the clicker doesn't mean it takes all people/all dogs longer...it means you are used to training that particular way and it works for you. I'll repeat ANYTHING can be a conditioned reinforcer...thats why my dogs go bonkers when I put bug spray on - becuase it means eventually they are going hiking in the woods. The clicker can be used as a "negative" thing if the owner wants to . There is nothing sacred about that hunk of plastic....it's just an interrupter like shouting "hey!" when your dog is running into the street. It buys you time to redirecct to an appropriate activity and it will always work becuase mammals have an instinctual startle response.
Don't get me wrong - I believe you clicker training works but it is not dependent on the clicker itself. The ideas behind clicker training are notihing new or original and are practiced by everybody on this board everyday.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 7, 2004 15:23:57 GMT -5
I agree with you. That the training behind it is the same as you guys all use. Do something good, you get rewarded. But still, I can't say the clicker would work as a negative thing. Say if everytime you ran across the street when you were small, your mom blew a whistle. And thats all. Would it teach you anything besides the fact that you sure hated that whistle, and your mom is kind of getting annoying too. Sure, you CAN use it, but it totally defeats the purpose.
And the clicker isn't hard to carry around. They have little stretchy bands you can attach to your waist so you can stretch the clicker out. How simple is that? You can use rewards other then treats as well...praise, toys, balls, treats...whatever your dog works for.
I know theres nothing sacred about the clicker. It in itself doesn't let the dog know whats right. Its what follows it (supper, going for walks, getting pet...) that makes it so special.
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Post by ripley on Aug 7, 2004 15:56:18 GMT -5
Aha, I've found the species that will do anything for click & treat. CATS! Most aren't phased by the click, and they'll learn almost anything (Mine is learning agility) for a treat. Right now, Ripley is doing well with the verbal acknowledgment of "good", and I figure I shouldn't rock the boat by switching methods right in the middle of training, but the clicker will be fantastic for agility training a certain dog I know. Thanks for your suggestions!
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Post by amyjo on Aug 7, 2004 16:15:12 GMT -5
Um...did you read the part about the startle response giving you a moment to redirect to an appropriate activity?
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Post by ripley on Aug 7, 2004 16:27:05 GMT -5
Amyjo, I think I agree with you on this one. With Buster, the clicker got his attention and allowed us to give him a command. it didn't scare the daylights out of him, but it startled him enough to make him look to us for direction.
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Post by Iluvmypup on Aug 8, 2004 13:03:00 GMT -5
The clicker is great for agility. You can click those times he does a really awesome high jump, or those times he does a great landing, and you can let him know EXACTLY what it is that he's getting the treat for. Good luck and have fun! Oh, and yes, cats, along with birds, horses, dolphins, and tons of other animals can be clicker trained. You know those sea lion shows at zoos sometimes? Or those whales that do tricks? They're clicker trained, with the trainer using a whistle to let the animal know he's done good, and will get a fish afterwards. ;D
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Post by ripley on Aug 8, 2004 15:33:37 GMT -5
I might start casually introducing the clicker for TEACHING him things, like how to weave faster or 'give me five' (The only trick he refuses to learn) Thanks for your help!
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Post by ripley on Aug 25, 2004 20:37:08 GMT -5
Iluvmypup, I'm starting to condition him to like the clicker... my biggest problem is that he DOESN'T WANT TREATS! And NO I can't use a toy, I think he forgets what he's being rewarded for because he's so worked up over the toy! Since you're Reality's clicker-training guru, any advice?
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