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Post by Am on Apr 13, 2005 0:54:35 GMT -5
Hi, I'm new on the board here, so I guess I should introduce myself before I post. My name's Rachel, and I own a gorgeous brindle english Staffy Bull Terrier. He's a 6 year old entire male dog. I got him from a new friend one year ago who just did not have any time for him. At the time he knew a few basic commands, but wasn't particually obedient, wasn't housetrained, and apparently hadn't been socialised with other animals at all. Since I got him, we've done two obedience classes. He's learnt a lot of new things, and now he's generally very obedient and very polite (I'm so proud of the change in him!) He's gentle with cats and kids, and has always been friendly to strangers. Here's my problem - whenever we're around many other male dogs, he just wants to fight. No matter what I do (talk to him, yell at him, attempt to distract him with food or a toy...) he completely ignores me in favour of growling and lunging at the other dog. (Before anyone gets the idea he's totally nasty, I'd like to point out that I've never seen him growl at any human, or any puppy. I can take his food off him, handle any part of his body, and boss him round mercilessly and he won't even grumble. It's only other adult male dogs he has the problem with.) Now, I know it's pretty normal for most unsocialised entire male bull terriers to want to fight other male dogs. However, that doesn't mean that it's acceptable behaviour, and I'd very much like to train him out of it. I've asked several dog trainers for their opinions on the subject, and have got several different answers. We're currently trying an obedience school that is very "positive" focused - meaning you're not meant to correct your dog physically or growl at him. That has been very effective when I'm teaching him new tricks, but unfortunately doesn't work at all for this problem. As soon as he sees a dog he'd like to fight, he immediately starts to ignore my commands. My dog likes fighting other dogs FAR more than he likes treats, clicker or toys. Other trainers have told me to invest in a prong or a choke collar, and start correcting him whenever he acted aggressively so he learns he has to obey me ALL the time. I don't really like the idea of choking or pronging my dog so I haven't tried that yet, but I guess it's better than letting him think it's OK to attack other dogs. One trainer recommended getting him de-sexed, but most have told me that since he's already 6 years old it's unlikely to make much of a difference to his behaviour. I'd love to work with my dog off-leash at obedience school, but the only way that's ever going to happen is if I can convince him to obey me even if he's distracted by other dogs. Has anyone out there had a similar problem, and how did they resolve it? I'm pulling my hair out over this one, so ANY advice would be appreciated! Thanks in advance, Am
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Post by Laura on Apr 13, 2005 13:04:16 GMT -5
Hi and welcome to the board!
You have a twofold problem here, one is genetics and the other is dominance. The dominance can be controlled and managed, the genetics cannot. Unfortunately, many AmStaffs, Pitbulls, and Staffordshires have the genetic tendencies to be very dog aggressive, poor breeding practices have only exacerbated this problem. Most bully breed owners know this and accept it, now it's a matter of management. Neutering at this age will probably not solve the aggression, but I strongly recommend it anyway, unneutered males are 4 times more likely to develop testicular cancer, and it may help slightly with the aggression, as testosterone only fuels the fire. Not to mention the fact that it only takes about sixty seconds for your dog to get loose and find a bitch in heat to make a litter. The next step is to find a trainer that specializes in aggression, your local Schutzhund club or even the K9 unit of the police department (if you have one) is a good place to get recommendations. Positive training will NOT help a dog like yours, that I can guarantee you. Until you can get a qualifies trainer, it's time to implement NILIF, or Nothing In Life Is Free, which you can read in our Training section here on the board. It's the first step to take in establishing your leader position with your dog. Then it's time to desensitze the dog to other dogs. This must be done in a controlled environment, with a trainer. I personally would recommend someone who is well versed with an e-collar and the crittering method to break his focus on other dogs. There are several methods that can be used to manage his dog aggression, including the use of a prong collar, be all of these methods are not for those who haven't used them previously, it's best to enlist the help of a professional who is well versed with these methods.
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Post by Kona on Apr 13, 2005 13:12:53 GMT -5
. . . unneutered males are 4 times more likely to develop testicular cancer . . . Uh . . . huh? Neutered males can't get testicular cancer. That's like saying a bald man is 4 times less likely to get gray hair.
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Post by Laura on Apr 13, 2005 17:29:08 GMT -5
Kona, what part of [glow=red,2,300]UN [/glow]neutered did ya miss ( as in intact, still has the whole package, twigg AND berries) ;D?
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Post by Kona on Apr 13, 2005 18:01:50 GMT -5
lol, yeah, I got that part, thanks. It's the "4 times more likely" part that I don't get. Unneutered males are [glow=red,2,300]infinitely[/glow] more likely to get testicular cancer than neutered males, because neutered males don't have testicles. Twig, but no berries.
It's like saying, "a bird is 4 times more likely to fly than a turtle." Now do you see what I mean?
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Post by Am on Apr 13, 2005 18:30:22 GMT -5
Hi Laura, Thanks for the reply. We're already been on NILIF for months, and we love it! It really does seem to agree with him, as it's improved his behaviour markedly in so many ways. However when he meets another big bossy boy dog the genes just seem to take over, and he forgets that mum doesn't like fighting. Or perhaps he just enjoys it so much that the payoff is far greater than the worry of getting into trouble? About finding a trainer - we don't actually have many dog trainers around here (Wellington, New Zealand). There are two obedience clubs in the town, both of which I've checked out, and which train using purely positive methods. I don't know if we have a local Schutzhund club, but I'll investigate. If there's anything else anyone can think of that I could do to help him myself, I'd be grateful if they'd post it. I love my dog and there's no way I'd ever get rid of him, but this one problem of his is driving me up the wall. Rachel
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Post by Laura on Apr 13, 2005 20:57:44 GMT -5
Good god, we really need to work on the vernacular with these threads . But I gotcha , clarification was in order, as in hormonal related cancers. Now back to the business at hand (or in hand if you've been following the above ;D). Rachel, let me do some asking around on the Sch. boards and see if we can't find you a trainer versed in aggression for you in your neck of the woods. Worst case scenario, we'll try and walk you through some methods for controlling the dog on your own, but as said, a trainer in person will be better suited to se the dog first hand.
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Post by Am on Apr 13, 2005 21:19:10 GMT -5
Thanks Laura, I really appreciate your help.
Rachel
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Post by Laura on Apr 13, 2005 21:42:50 GMT -5
Rachel, I think I forgot that Schutzhund and PPD training is frowned upon in NZ (I know Australia is for sure, not quite as sure about NZ). But I did find a NZ German Shepherd site, it has a link to the NZ Police Dog association, which is a step in the right direction . www.wdgsdc.org.nz/id25.htmI'm also waiting to hear back from some folks about other training avenues as well. By the way, can you give me an idea of where you are? New Zealand's kind of a large place ;D.
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Post by Am on Apr 14, 2005 3:56:00 GMT -5
Hi Laura, I'm in Wellington - I looked on the internet and in the phone book today, couldn't see any Schultzhund. If it's personal protection dog-type work, I'm not suprised it's not popular over here. Unfortunately New Zealand has fairly draconian dog laws - dogs that bite people tend to be put down, regardless of whether they acting in their owner's defense or under comand. We don't seem to be able to get prong collars over here either - I checked out the biggest pet store in town today and all they could offer me was a choke chain or a halti. I'm not keen on the halti since as far as I know they don't help correct the dog for bad behaviour, just prevent it happening while the halti's on. I guess I could give the choke chain ago, but I'm a bit worried about hurting his neck with it. Thanks again, Rachel
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Post by Brooke on Apr 14, 2005 20:06:16 GMT -5
I think Aussienot found ways around the pinch or lack there of problem. I thouht she said that they are not available over there but they can purchase them disassembled and shipped over.
I'm sure she'll peek in here at some point to explain...I do think a pinch would greatly benefit you.
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Post by Am on Apr 14, 2005 22:41:27 GMT -5
Hi again Laura and Brooke!
I have one more question about the prong collar that maybe you two could address? I was talking to some folks (on another message board) about my dog, and one woman was concerned that putting him in a prong collar would actually make him MORE aggressive, if he learned to associate getting corrected with strange dogs.
Now, I've had a think about that, and I came to the conclusion that it would depend on whether Monsta believed the correction was a result of: a) his own aggressive behaviour (which would make him less aggressive in future), or b) was caused by the presence of the other dog (possibly making him much angrier.)
He's not the brightest mutt in the world, so I am worried that he might just think the prong collar happens whenever he meets a strange dog. Is there any way you know to make sure that he understands exactly what he's being corrected for?
Thanks again,
Rachel
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Post by Am on Apr 15, 2005 3:27:29 GMT -5
More importantly, I've just found out that pinch collars are illegal in this country. Seems strange, since choke collars and electric collars are allowed, but there you go.
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Post by Aussienot on Apr 15, 2005 19:18:41 GMT -5
I've messaged Rachel about an expert in the subject. There's a lot of mis-information about the legality of both pinch and e-collars. I honestly don't know about NZ law, but a lot of people told me exactly the same thing because that's the way they wanted it to be, not the way it really is.
Using the pinch, you don't only have it on when he's around other dogs. He wears it all the time when you are together doing fun things, and it's used to communicate all things. If all you do it give him a level ten correction every time he reacts to another dog, yes, it could increase the problem.
You've got a dog that was bred and raised to be a mafia hit man. Nothing in his handling has modified or channeled his instincts, and at this stage in his life he's never going to play nicely with other dogs. He has dangerous behaviors that mean that purely positive is not a training option. However, he's a physically strong and mentally determined dog, and most likely you're not going to be able to physically correct him in a behavior-modifying way. Both extremes are unlikely to work with this dog.
That doesn't mean you can't expect a reasonable level of behavior out of him when he's in the presence of other dogs. You need to become a very good trainer in positive reinforcement. In essence, finding out what really motivates him, and teaching him that the only access to this thing is through you. I'd advise you to work with a professional trainer who has experience with dog aggressive dogs. You need some first-hand help on the ground. See if you can get a copy of Australasian Working Dog magazine as there will be a lot of contacts in there.
It took about two years from the point that Finn was lunging at every entire male within sight to the point where in a controlled situation he can be off lead and under control in a group obedience class. As Laura said, the dominance can be controlled, the genetics cannot. But I stress control - he's not running loose at the dog park. And I make VERY conservative choices about going off lead when there are large dominant intact males on the training field.
I too would neuter him if for no other reason than it makes him less of a target for conflict from other dogs. Finn is very 'reactive' rather than proactive in his aggression, and if no dog is challenging him he is far less likely to go into fight mode.
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Post by Am on Apr 18, 2005 0:50:21 GMT -5
Thanks for that huge post, Aussienot. Have messaged you back. Am
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