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Post by Ellie on Oct 10, 2004 14:19:54 GMT -5
I have 2 female Cocker Spaniels. One is 13 the other is 1 year 4 months. My 13 year old is very sweet and loving. My new dog is also very affectionate. The youngest is skittish with newcomers and always runs to me when company arrives. She has recently become quite possesive over various objects leading to aggression. She is aggressive if the other dog walks by her food bowl. We now feed them on opposite sides of the room and take the bowls up when they show no interest in their own food. She is protective over her leash. She lays on it with her head rigid. She has even nipped at me then. She has been most aggressive when she is curled up in my lap. She is very affectionate and she seems to be close to me at all times. Anytime I sit she tries to curl up in my lap. If the older dog comes by she gets aggressive at times. We have witnessed 3 times that she has latched to my older dogs neck or ear. What can I do? I know that the average training that takes place here won't address this. I also don't want to discourage her from ever curling up into our laps. Will there be a way to work on this and let her continue to be the loving puppy she is?
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Post by Iluvmypup on Oct 10, 2004 15:26:13 GMT -5
Hi, and welcome to Reality Bites! Everyone here is great and can offer great advice for any problems you might run into. I've learned a great deal from them. Okay, first off, theres nothing wrong with having your dog curl up in your laps. Its one of the joys of dog ownership to have that close connection. The only problme I'm seeing is that your dog is making the decision to come into your lap, not you. He's thinking of himself as 'top dog' in a way. NILIF is becoming more and more popular, and you might want to look into it. It stand for Nothing In Life Is Free. Basically, you can cuddle with your dog all you want, but ONLY when you want to and ONLY when you ask of it from your dog. In other words, if your dog comes to lie in your lap, walk away. Don't let him. If your sitting down and want him nearby, encourage him near to you and praise him and pet him all you want. When your finished, walk away. Don't give in to his 'attention seeking'. Your dog sounds like he's resource guarding three things, according to what I see...1. his food, 2. his leash, and 3. you, his owner. For each one you'll deel differently, but the concept is the same. I would keep up with teaching him obedience skills. Three commands I find invaluable are OFF, COME, and PLACE. For the leash guarding, you may want to teach PLACE. I can give you some tips on teaching it if you're interested. I just don't want to make this post too long and boring for you. ;D You'll also want to teach OFF for when he's on your lap and you want him off now. Again, I can give you some tips on that if you want. Whenever he's on your lap and starts growling, barking or in any way acting aggressive to your other dog, I would right then and there get up and walk away. If he can't behave, he doesn't deserve your attention. Good luck! Dealing with aggression, it is totally possible to help your dog with this issue...all it takes is patience and time. If you ever doubt your own ability to handle this situation, and it gets out of control, consider hiring a behaviourist professional or a trainer who can and has dealt with aggression.
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Post by Ellie on Oct 10, 2004 21:02:02 GMT -5
Thank you so much for the response. I would appreciate any advice you will and can give. I looked NILIF up on the internet and made a copy of the page. IS that all there is to it? No books or pamphlets - just a page on the internet? It sounds so simple. It will be very tough for me though. Part of what I enjoy is her just hopping into my lap whenever, but I'll just have to train her then call her often. She is quite stubborn so teaching any new commands will take a bit. If it will help with her aggretion towards my older dog, I'll do anything. There were other things you said you could expand on, please do whenever you have the time. My dog knows her name but won't always come to it. She is quite good with "sit", and "come", but only when she feels like it. She knows "down" as a command to lay down and usually only does this when a treat is involved. It will take some repetition. It already tore at my heart tonight to put her out of my lap and tell her "down". We'll get there. Any more advice would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
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Post by ripley on Oct 11, 2004 0:54:32 GMT -5
As hard as it can be, harden your heart and keep telling her NO. (it was tough for me with my dog) Telling a dog to get off your lap is not going to make them any less of a 'lap dog', it is just teaching them that you are their ALPHA, not their soft, fluffy bed. I see no problem with letting a dog sit on your lap, but like Luv said, make it on YOUR terms. Example: Dog gets on your lap, you put the dog on the ground. (If it is a stubborn dog, repeat 15x Once the dog is sitting on the ground, tell her to sit. If she does, then call her up onto your lap. If she doesn't sit, block your lap so she can't get on. Also, if you call her up onto your lap, and she waits 30 seconds to jump up - NO NO. If she doesn't leap at the opportunity to get that attention, she loses her chance and you wait about 15 minutes before calling her again. Right now it seems to me that you are just being her caretaker and roommate, not her master. (Keep in mind that dogs aren't people and they live best with structure in their household) When she squeezes against you and snaps at whatever comes near you, she is being possessive of you. When she does that, it's not because she's terribly fond of you, it's a 'doggy' gesture of YOU BELONG TO ME. It's no different than her possessiveness over her toys and food. If you change that, stop being her 'toy' and start being her master, and give her an alpha figure to look to, that alone will greatly help her aggression. Not only that, but it will improve the bond you have with her in the long run. As for the NILIF, that's just about it. It's VERY simple, but depending on how dominant or aggressive your dog is, you can increase the degree to which you use it. P.S. Good luck!
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Post by Rowan on Oct 11, 2004 12:47:02 GMT -5
Hi Ellie I have 4 pups from a previous litter that I kept, 3 of them are male. Each generation of pups has come into a growth stage of maturity around the 11/2 year age frame. It is a time they (I feel) are makeing the transition from puppy hood to young adult and finding or defineing their place in a group and who they are as individuals (I have 13) and have been through this stage with each of them, They become more intolerent, more touchy to each other and the other adults in my group. Seems everything is a challenge that they have to posture an action towards. It is a natural transition for that age. The fine line for me in managing a multiple dog houseold is consideration for both sides. Puppy needs to grow, Puppy needs to develope into the strong/confident individual that they are ment to be My adults should not have to deal with it, My adults should not have to be put into a position to have to take action for an up and comming wipper snapper. Proper dog to dog correction in our house hold is not a problem and my adults have learned well from the adults before them. My job is to insure that no one is pushed into a situation that esculates beyond a simple incoident. My dogs must learn tolerence and proper interaction in a group. Like something as simple as stealing,, My adults that have learned the rules, will just let go of a toy that a younger one is trying to steal and come to me to fix it, I will go and take the toy from the one that stole it, (replace it with another toy for them) then bring the toy back to the one whom originally had it and even play with both of them using both toys. NO one gets punished it is a natural act, I do not let the one succeed in the steeling, but both dogs learn from the experience and leave the situation with a positive interaction. so it is a matter of always keeping balance between the two no matter what the situation is. My pups learn from the actions of my already trained adults in how they deal with our household in positive interaction. And no one bites someones face off over something as silly as toys, space, food.......As an owner it is important to step in and develope what you want and not what the dogs want but do it in a positive way that is rewarding for each dog which promotes the behavior to repeat itself each time the situation occurs. Now the lap thing.. First and foremost for each of my dogs that have shown possessive traits on me.. I find it offensive!!!!!!!!!! I don't need their protection, and I am certainly NOT Their property!!!!!!!! Getting on the couch or sitting by me or being near me is a privilage (lets call it) and they must conduct themselves properly to earn that privledge.. Being next to me on the couch and growling because of another dog is improper, and I will tell them to leave. They are using that privledge claim me as property and for dominence over the other dog(s) and it is not acceptable in this house hold "it gets them kicked off the couch" not physically kicked off the couch, but they loose the privledge strongly and abrubtly no second thought. I have out and indoor kennels, up and coming wipper snappers need their own space, need to be taken away from a situation that provokes a natural instinct in their maturity, a stage they are not prepared to handle by our human rules. We need to teach them, we need to help develope the skills that are more desirable for a long term community household that is on our human terms and not natural dog terms. It is not a punishable state for being a dog and doing what is natural for them. Giving individual time completely alone put the other dog (younger or adult) outside, in a create, in another room but really give individual time to the one, for training, play time, just hanging out around the house togther lounging around. But develope that leadership bond with them without distractions. Then switch it and spend time with the other dog. Then work them together with the individual skills you have taught them individually giving them the experence of being team memembers and learning that working together as a team is a positive thing and not just one dog dominating the other for their rewards. Do give them space at this time, don't put them in a position they are unable to handle at this stage, feeding them apart is good for both of them. Your adult deserves not to have to deal with it, as well as you younger one shouldn't be put in a positon to develope a behavior that will only continue to intensify the more they do it....You control the house hold environment make it productive for both individuals Once you younger one learns more skills, and grows into their maturity all things come together to keeping a close happy household between multiple dogs...You make the rules, but give the dogs the skills to follow the rules your asking of them.....
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Post by Richard on Oct 11, 2004 14:12:05 GMT -5
That is some pic Rowan....I think that is you somewhere at the top of the be there? Btw, well written post re: young dogs and older dogs in the home...that is a very balanced approach and one that can easily be worked into a daily routine for both dogs and owner. -Richard
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Post by ripley on Oct 11, 2004 14:37:54 GMT -5
So THAT'S how they test the weight capacity for mattresses. Great picture.
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Post by Ellie on Oct 11, 2004 15:04:13 GMT -5
I am greatful for all of the advice. We origionally crate trained my puppy. She became so aggressive with the crate we took it away a few months ago. If the other dog walked by the crate she went after her. We have several dog beds in our room. The pup slept on one that had some floor pillows on one side of it. My older dog went to lay on the pillows and I had to jump out of the bed to get the puppy off of my older dog. I swiftly put the puppy in the bathroom by herself to calm the older dog. I then got the crate back out and told the pup to go to her house. She went in and slept. Should we continue to use the crate? We have taken things away that she was obsessed with but she then chooses things of ours to be possesive over. I have never had her in my lap when she growls at another dog, when she begins that I have put her in another room for a bit to cool off while I calm the other. I don't know if this is right. She has done wonderfully with getting off of my lap when I nudge her down then coming to me when I call her and getting up when I say "up", just in the last day and 1/2. As far as toys I need to make time to play with them separately. My older dog just doesn't want to compete anymore so she doesn't even attempt play anymore. The little one never gives her a chance, or she encourages the older one to play and she has no interest to play with her. I have taken all of the advice to heart. Thanks. I'd love advice on the use of the crate. We used to feed her in it and have her sleep in it. She is to a point that I can leave it out and open so she can come and go as long as we can nip her going after the other dog when she walks by.
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Post by ripley on Oct 11, 2004 16:54:12 GMT -5
A rather simple solution to this: Put the pup's crate in a different room, NOT your bedroom, and have her sleep there. Let the older dog sleep in your room with you.
With the crate aggression thing, (my dog is rather crate-aggressive) I can see your problem... Again, she is going in and out as she pleases, and that, again, is letting her be in charge of when she wants to go in and out of the crate. When you want her in the crate, put her in the crate and latch the door. When she's out of the crate, latch the door. Give her a different bed that she can go to when she wants, and save the crate for 'quiet time'. That alone might help her stop being so possessive of it.
Also... ALWAYS latch the door when she's in the crate and the other dog is walking around in the house.. Stop putting the older dog through this, and make sure that the puppy can't get to her. Stop giving this pup the opportunities to harrass the older dog.
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Post by Rowan on Oct 11, 2004 17:13:53 GMT -5
lol my hubby took the picture to show me what happens if he gets up in the middle of the night...I don't even notice them any more lol....
Ellie you will get through this and come out on top at the end. One on one time teaching rules with OB skills on how to play correctly and respectfully with you, will transfer over to how to play correctly with the other dogs. And that goes with anything you desire of your pup. isolating skills no matter how small they are and teaching them to do those skills so they can be applied to any situation will be your foundation..
object possession I perfer the more approach then the taking away.. ... so instead of taking away, try offering something esle to exchange it with.. They learn that releaseing something they want to keep is rewarding.
I have such high respect for everyone who has the smaller breeds.. they are such strong individuals, and bred for some very tough jobs. Helping others in training I always think,,, please let it be a rottie, or a pit, a gsd, or a standard poodle something in that area lol,, no no not a terrier, JTR, BC all the smaller breeds and sight hounds make me really work lol....in comparison to the larger breeds... lol... You can't imagine my high respect in aw watching these breeds work and the owners who got them there...It is so awsome to me!!!!
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Post by sibemom on Oct 11, 2004 17:58:31 GMT -5
Those were well worded comments Rowan. I agree with you for the most part, but I do have to comment on the more is better I understand where you are comming from with that but to me that is giving in. I guess what I have always enforced with my dogs it that what I give I can also take away no question. Right now I am having issues with my two beloved canines and although my Sibe is OB trained very well, when the prey drive kicks in you better have a back up plan, because a husky will blow you off in a second no matter how well they are trained once they get in the ZONE ;D I understand positive renforcement and I do that for compliance, not to make them comply but once they have done what I ask, but I don't think the positive approach works in every stiuation. I am sure you have far more experience than I but, what has worked best so far, and seems to be curing the problem that almost made me insane over the weekend is CRATES CRATES CRATES. If you do not behave you go to your crate because being lose in my home is a privelage like you said they must earn that right. My Sibe is a very dominant dog, and although I have established my postion with him, he still tests, but he is still a young dog and has almost a whole year before he reaches maturity, OH WON'T THAT BE FUN . My female GSD is just starting to "FIND HERSELF" ;D so to speak and I am not sure who will be the dominant one once she blossems into a mature dog. I have my bets on the Sibe but it's not up to me it's up to them. So I enjoyed reading what you had to say and took alot of it under advisement ;D
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Post by Rowan on Oct 11, 2004 21:24:18 GMT -5
Thanks Sibemom, I have also heard the giveing more can be taken as a compromise to the owners leadership ability.
None of my pups/adults have been food aggressive, or toy aggressive but the instinct is there more controled then what Ellie is going through at this stage, but it is there instinctively, just putting my hand down to a new pups food they may not come at me or growl or anything like that, but they are still reacting defenseively by eatting it faster like I might take it away, so it is there until they are taught through new experiences that this is ok though it goes against their natural grain. I am always forgetting to add the salmon oil lol lol so while they are eatting I may have to add a teaspoon of it or what ever I did forget and they will move their head over eatting normally so I can put it in their bowls and they think nothing of it, they are desensitized to what instinct tells them... It has nothing to do with my leadership skills over them, they honestly don't worry about their food.
I do look at behavior as individual actions, body positions, is why I like teaching them to release by offering something different that would also be rewarding. And it will not work for all dogs, some dogs would not willingly let go of something even if lightening struck them lol you will have to take a different approach,, I wouldn't give up on it but most may not see it would ever work so yes you must move on... But if they do let go I see it as the dog willing to work, to learn, to let go of what natural instinct tells them not to do. I will always feel I have won a small edge in the right direction of where we need to go. Learning to let go, not growl or lash out is a tiny tiny tiny step but it shows they can, and would and they will..
The motivation of possession to me is the denial of that possession it is instinct in all dogs to some level of degree, if denial of a possession is just as rewarding as possessing it, we desensitize the first motivation that created the behavior in the first place. There will be no leadership struggle becasue the behavior isn't there. the dog will repeat its learned behavior in a positive and not depend on your leadership or lack of leadership ability to make their choices. There will always be respect, but they let go because they want to, not because they know you can make them. That is always my goal, is wanting that undesirable behavior gone in anysituation gone for good no matter if it is me sticking my hand in their bowl or a complete stranger/vet tech who has no leadership authority over them.... Basically is where my ideas are coming from...
And yes I do use crates, Very much agree with you on that one. Hummble pie works wonders doesn't it lol....
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Post by ripley on Oct 11, 2004 22:04:33 GMT -5
It is so nice to hear someone say that. So many people seem to think that owners of small dogs don't have to put much work into training their dogs, just because we can pick them up without giving ourselves a hernia. ;D The little guys are tougher.. As dominant as he is, my BC will never match the fierceness and the free spirit of my papillon.
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Post by sibemom on Oct 12, 2004 5:29:12 GMT -5
Oh yes RG small dogs can be quite the handfull and do take a strong owner ;D I have owned a few small breeds in my time yes that is true My favorite being a Mini Doxie who was very small in size but very large in ATTITUDE ;D
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Post by ripley on Oct 12, 2004 15:49:56 GMT -5
Well, this is my first dog under 75lbs, so I'm learning a lot from raising him. Cockers are usually pretty docile, I haven't seen many aggressive ones... My grandpa had a cocker spaniel, the world's most submissive dog. If you even looked at this poor thing, it would pee on the floor and then roll over onto its back (usually right in the puddle of pee)
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