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Post by simba on Jun 11, 2004 12:27:58 GMT -5
Hi,
I really need some advice. My wife and I recently adopted a Chow Chow from a rescue society here in NYC. The dogs history was vague, but we do know that he was found abandoned on 86th and Lexington. He was taken to the 145th street shelter, and was to be euthanised. He had been with the rescue woman for 2 weeks when we adopted him. I immediatly hired a trainer when the dog growled at me over a bone. The trainer has advised us to use a penny jar sprayed with Bitter Apple in cases where the dog will not listen to the drop command, and then positvly reinforce once the dog relinquishes the bone. I have used this only in extreme cases as I notice the dog is sound sensitive.
Last night I walked into my bedroom, where Simba was laying in the corner on my side of the bed. When I leaned over to pet him I noticed a strange look in his eyes. He started growling, and before I knew it he bit me (drew blood on my thigh). I backed up and told him to calm down that it was ok, but he only growled deeper. I then noticed that he was actually lying about 2 feet away from a large rawhide bone my wife had given him. I immediatly got the penny jar and shook it, which scared him off.
My problem is that his possesiveness is sporadic, and I am not sure what triggers it. I have no fear of dogs as my family has always had at least three at a time. Dog bites after breaking up a fight between two alphas in my house were pretty common. Also Simba is ussually very sweet and obediant. In 1 month he has learned to sit stay, lay down, and shake hands. He trusts me very much and runs up to me when I get home and loves to have his belly rubbed. He does not seem generally nervous or overly agressive.
My fear is that my wife and want to have children soon, and everyone is advising me to get rid of the dog. This is absolutly not an option. I love this dog very much. We have friends with small children as well.
Is there some way to counter this problem. Will my children be safe around him. I need help very much. More importantly I need reassurance as everyone seems to be against my dog. MY psycologist is convinced that agression is something that cannot be trained away. My trainer may have financial interests in saying that we can train him properly. Everyone seems to have negative Chow Chow stories.
Thanks, Steven
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Post by Willow on Jun 11, 2004 13:02:42 GMT -5
Hi Simba, nice to see you here and I hope we can help you, but first I want to tell you right up front that some of the advise you get may not be as encouraging as you would like to hear and there are many reasons for that. First of all, unfortunately, you do have a breed that does have a reputation for aggression. Secondly, I agree with your psychologist that aggression usually cannot be "trained away", but with strict rules and NILIF (nothing in life is free) training, plus extreme caution and vigilance on you and your wife's part, aggression usually can be "managed". What you will have to decide is if it is worth it or not, because if you ever let your guard down, the result could be very serious and someone will suffer another bite. What your chow is doing over the bone is called, "Resource guarding". He feels that the bone is "His" and that he is higher in rank than you are, and therefore is challenging your right to take it away from him. What you have to do is convince him that you are "Alpha" and everything in the house belongs to you and he must give it up willingly whenever you ask. This is the hard part, especially since he has already gotten away with biting you once already. I do not personally feel a penny can is adequate ammunition for aggression, and feel your trainer is not giving you the right advise. If it worked, the dog would not have progressed to biting you!!! You have to convince this dog that if he ever even gives you the "evil eye", or growls at you or anyone else, that his life is in jeopardy, or as one of our member's on the board says, which I love, "Thou shall not piss off the Alpha!!!" That should be the #1 rule everyone lives by. There would be far fewer aggression problems. Another "red flag" that I see is that when he growled at you, you tried to "soothe" him and told him it was "o.k." etc. In dog language that is telling him it was o.k. to growl and bite you!!! The minimum thing you should have done is tell him, "NO! NO! NO!" and let him know that what he is doing is totally unacceptable! This dog also has to be strongly physically corrected whenever he shows any signs of aggression. I would suggest you switch to a trainer who works with aggressive dogs everyday. Also, a good website to go to is: www.leerburg.com There are many articles and question/answers on aggression. Ed is very experienced and would be glad to answer your questions. Be forwarned also though, that Ed is a very "no nonsense, straight to the point, " kind of guy. My personal advise would also be that as long as you own this dog I would not even think of bringing children (yours or anyone else's) into your home. I'm sorry I couldn't be more encouraging, but in all honesty, aggression is a very hard one to deal with once it rears it's ugly head, and the outcome is rarely very good.
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Post by simba on Jun 11, 2004 13:30:14 GMT -5
I understand your points. One correction though. The dog is terrified of the penny jar. Normally I would only have to show it to him and he would instantly run away from the bone. The problem is that in this case I didn't see the bone at all.
As far as the NILF, I've been instituting it since week 2. Simba definetly looks to me as the alpha. The only mistake I would say I've made with him is the play wrestling. Althoug I've always made sure to leave first during both petting sessions and play sessions. I make him sit for both treats food, ad dog walks.
In general he is highly responsive, it's just this damn bone issue. I'm thinking about training him with a very meaty bone to provoke the incident and then use a studded prong collar to correct. I'm just wondering if I should then use a reward once he's acquiesed.
I've already considered my feelings about the dog, and I am commited to managing this issue.
I checked out Leerburgs site, andI agree with many of his points. On some points I think he is unrealistic. I cannot see how it would benefit myself or the dog to keep him away from people all the time. In fact everything I've read insists on constant socialization. He is shy around strangers but is getting better very quickly.
does anyone have any other management advice?
Thanks
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Post by Nicole on Jun 11, 2004 13:55:21 GMT -5
First, I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with what Willow has said.
As for management, if it were me, this dog would NEVER get another bone...or at least not until you wotked out your leadership issues. The dog does not respect you as alpha. If he did he would not have bitten you. So, somehow, you are not communicating with him properly.
Get rid of the penny can. All you are doing is showing this dog that you, a person he barely knows and does not yet respect or trust, are a scary person who throws noisy things at him. He may run, but he is not learning anything.
The dog needs a correction that he understands and that would in my opinion be a prong collar. There are many threads here to guide you on the proper use this collar.
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Post by Nicole on Jun 11, 2004 14:10:58 GMT -5
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Post by Willow on Jun 11, 2004 19:54:37 GMT -5
Nicki is absolutely correct, and from your last post I can see that you are making "excuses" for you and the dog and if the answer's aren't what you want to hear, you ask for "other" management advise.
Have you discussed your dogs problem with the lady who fostered him? Did he show any aggression while she had him? What is her advise to you? Sporadic behavior is not good. You never know when the dog will take exception to something/someone and attack.
Ed's advise is also good and is not "unreasonable". The only way to guarantee an aggressive dog will not bite again is to keep it away from people. If you aren't willing to do that, you will have to suffer the consequences.
I can give you another suggestion. Put and keep a muzzle on the dog whenever he is around people. It won't stop the aggression, it is just to prevent him from biting again, and from your possibly being slapped with a law suit, but once the muzzle is not on the dog, all bets are off. If you decide to go this route, make sure it is the "basket type" of muzzle and not the soft one. The dog has to be able to pant or he will over heat and suffer serious consequences.
I am also not in favor of just putting a prong collar on a dog and start correcting it for aggression when you don't know what you are doing. Especially one like your dog. I have the feeling he will turn on you.
I am really disturbed by your attitude about this dog and I am afraid you are going to have a lot of future problems.
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Post by Brooke on Jun 11, 2004 21:24:39 GMT -5
Hey there Steven.. ;D Welcome to the board! First I have to say I agree with a lot that was said but personally I think that your situation can be managed it will just take time. It sounds as though you are working with a purely positive trainer? Ask your trainer how many aggression cases they have "rehabilitated". Ask for those specific references as well. For some dogs this works but with a dog with dominance or aggression issues they need some type of motivational correction. The penny can won't work for this for two reasons... 1. As you have already found you won't always have it and 2. The dog is afriad and only "respectful" (if you want to call it that) of the can which causes the reaction you are wanting and not of you. You have not earned this dogs respect, the can has. So I have to agree. Get rid of the can and work on the NILIF. Take away the bone. I would also put this dog on a pinch and a lead at all times until you get the pecking order and basic training down at least. Positive training has it's place here but for the bad you need to be motivationally correcting this dog...hands down. No curled lips, no glares or staring you down, no growling or anything of the sort. Correct him EVERY SINGLE TIME. If a tin can is enough to get this dog back off I just have a hard time believing if you confronted the dog by towering over him and shouting "knock it off" its not going to have the same effect. When you back off you are re-confirming to the dog that he is alpha every time. You are re-confirming that you are afriad of him and he rules the roost. When you coo him and turn to a puddle of mush when he does this...it's the same thing. He is not understanding you want to be buddies by doing this...he is understanding he wins. That is how a dog thinks. You have to change your method and train of thought. It all starts with NILIF and the more you do it the more your confidence will boost on how to handle things and the more you will instill the respect. Your dog will gain confidence in you holding the alpha position. I just think what has happened here is that he has trained you. I also personally think that can be un-done but it will take some time, work and an open mind. Stick with us and we can help you out. Us regulars here have had our share of dominance and aggression issues. Some of us work daily with them and/or live with them in our home. We know what we are talkin about. ;D Once you get the pack structure figured out and settled you may be able to bring back the toys and things but only on your terms. You need to earn his respect first.
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Post by Aussienot on Jun 11, 2004 23:02:57 GMT -5
I hope the Chow rescue gave you some information about the breed. They look like teddy bears, but the breed tends to be tough and dominant. They have a reputation for being people aggressive. It takes an experienced and committed owner to keep one in a typical family household.
I don't want to discourage you from trying to manage the aggression problem, but everything you are doing will have to change. EVERYTHING. Your dog's world must change, and you must change it.
Throw out everything you think you know about owning a pet. It will only get worse if you continue down the path you are going. Loving the dog is not enough. Throw yourself into learning about being Alpha, NILIF, and managment of aggression. Training must become your way of life.
Get a prong collar and keep it on whenever you are home. Get a crate and start crate training. Simba needs to go to doggy boot camp, where there are no bones, no toys, and everything in the world comes through you. It needs to be your bed, your house, your rules.
You don't have to be mean, but you and your wife do need to understand how a dog thinks, and start being a leader to him. He won't willingly give up top spot. Find a good professional trainer who has successfully treated human aggressive dogs before. Purely positive will not work in aggression cases. Admit the dog has bitten, and get some professional help.
Can you keep Simba? - of course, if you are willing to work at it, and are tough enough.
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Post by Willow on Jun 12, 2004 10:40:19 GMT -5
I agree with Brooke and Aussienot too, but what bother's me about this case and the point I was trying to make, which may not have been accomplished, is that Simba wants his dog to be a "normal" dog who will be friendly and trustworthy around everyone and it just isn't going to happen with this dog. This dog will always have to be "watched closely" (managed) around people, because no amount of socialization or training is going to turn this dog into a friendly non-aggressive dog.
"Management" means just that. The owner learns to "manage" the dog with the aggressive temperment and either have the dog so well trained that it won't think of biting when the owner is there, (which to me is never 100% successful, except with the most knowledgable/experienced owner) or contain (manage) the dog by keeping him away from people by using a crate, as Aussienot suggested.
Can it be done. Of course it can, as Brooke and Aussienot have said, but my question always is: Is it worth it when there are so many sweet dogs out there who need homes and who are being pts everyday for no other reason than no one wants them.
I know I am in the minority with my way of thinking. ;D
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Post by sibemom on Jun 12, 2004 13:33:29 GMT -5
All points made here were great but I agree with Willow. I have had some experience with Chow's and they can be very nice family dogs BUT the training has to start from the day you bring the puppy into your home. I would not provoke a situation by using a meaty bone, you are asking to get HURT! If you can understand that you will never be able to let your gaurd down where your dog is concerned then go find yourself a K-9 trainer who deals regularly with aggresive dogs. Make sure you check the references and if you go to the Leerburg site I am sure someone can recomend one. My neighbor has a male Chow, and when they brought him home they started having problems similar to what you are having. They imediatly got in touch with what they called an "Alpha dog trainer" and spent a long time working with him to get the dogs problems resolved. They still have to watch him every second but at least they have controll and he is well behaved and when out on walks listens to his owner. When people come over to their house the dog is crated. So it is up to you how far you are willing to go
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Post by Alpha Sheltie on Jun 20, 2004 4:09:01 GMT -5
Hi Steven, I haven't had nearly as much dog experience as the others who've already given you great advice but I do however have an aggressive Sheltie. One thing that has got to change is the method of training. It sounds like this trainer is going through the positive approach. There may be a place in the dog world for it but it definately isn't for aggressive dogs. Look around for a trainer who has dealt with aggressive dogs (also ask about the outcome!) I was lucky that I found a great trainer who didn't rely on using food to distract an aggressive dog (which was what our first trainer did). I guess I'll tell you about my story. Kaedyn is my second dog and came home in September of 2003. He seemed sweet but the moment he and Kai had a treat by each other, all hell broke loose. From then on, he was extremely dominant with EVERYONE. We train with physical and vocal correction. It has worked a million times better with my dogs. After NILIF and physically correcting Kaedyn, he immediately turned into a good dog again! He went from growling and nipping me when I asked him to down to the head of the class within 2 weeks. It's amazing how much dogs change when you change your method of training. He is still aggressive but he has changed A LOT since September. I still walk him on a prong to correct him when he growls at people (or is about to lunge). I also use a muzzle on him just in case. Anyways, I don't think the Chow respects you as the alpha. If he did, you would be able to take away his possessions without a single problem. In september, I would have lost a limb if I took away a raw meaty bone from Kaedyn. But now, I can take it away without having to fear losing my fingers. It's your choice whether you want to keep the chow or not when you have kids. Aggression can be managed but it's hard to say if it'll ever really go away...especially with a dog with unknown history (just like Kaedyn as well). If aggression is managed well enough and the child is never allowed to be alone with the dog, it may work but it's a personal preference.
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Post by Nicole on Jun 20, 2004 8:57:51 GMT -5
That's an amazing job that you did Alpha Sheltie. You should be very proud of yourself because as you know, it is not an easy road. Your accomplishment shows what an excellent trainer you really are.
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Post by Brooke on Jun 20, 2004 10:12:06 GMT -5
I will second that ;D Thank you for sharing that Alpha Sheltie! Couldn't have said it better myself!
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Post by amyjo on Jun 21, 2004 10:00:59 GMT -5
Hi Simba - I know I am late coming in to this and you really have received some great advise.
Having been bitten several times by my own dog I only want to empasize and maybe repeat a few things that can't be said often enough.
1. You stated that you had been doing NILIF since the second week...but if your dog was on the bed chewing a bone then there is some confusion on your part about what NILIF really is. If you read those articles and you still have questions PLEASE PLEASE ask. We are all here to share and support and most of all to help the dogs.
2. Like others before me have said - ditch the penny jar. You are only scaring the dog and not really accomplishing anything other than a momentary distration.
You need to be tough but fair and earn the dogs respect. You will not accomplish this with fright but rather with calm, controlled discipline. This is how a bond will grow...praising the good, correcting the bad in a way the dog can understand. As others have suggested the pinch collar makes the most sense - but I would encourage you to take it slow because you have already been bitten.
This means you have to set up his whole world so that he can't be bad and doesn't require corrections. This means taking a way all bones and toys...limit mealtimes to 15 minutes - close him off from all furniture that he might climb on and set yourself up to win this battle of wills.
The first time you introduce the pinch collar it should not be in a time of stress (like over a bone or a position on the furniture) but rather for non compliance of a simple command the dog already knows(like sit).
Once you have seen positive changes you can grant more freedoms but you will always have to watchfull and be willing to back up a step if need be.
As others have said - you can manage aggression but it is a lifelong endevour so make sure you are up to it - because one mistake on your part can result in heartbreak.
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Post by Willow on Jun 21, 2004 10:11:38 GMT -5
What a wonderful success story, Alpha Sheltie!!! Thank you!!
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