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Post by TrainerMichelle on Feb 26, 2004 12:52:22 GMT -5
Nicki, Willow and Amy are right on the money. Dogs are pack animals and when they mature into adult hood, they will assume strange dogs are a threat to their pack, and be defensive. Socialization has nothing to do with whether a fight will start or not. If your dog doesn't have a strong pack drive, she may never instigate a fight with another dog, but if she is attacked, she will fight back, and although she is socialized, she can defend herself (and should). Each time your dog meets a new dog, it is first deciding rank, and if they are close in age, size, or rank, a fight may ensue to determine who is higher. Its the result of thousands of years of selection..... I do not agree with the philosophy of letting them work it out. I am the pack leader of my dogs, and I decide if my pup will play with another pup, or not. I do'nt like strange dogs dominating my dogs because they must work in an environment with other dogs, and so I prefer them to be aloof, and not assuming a dominance or subordinate posture. If a dog tries to posture on my dogs, I will block them with my body and take my dog away. I only allow posturing with dogs who are in my pack to keep the peace in my house. Dogs with a strong pack drive are going to try to dominate other dogs, regardless of how socialized they are, and fights will happen if the dog is challenged, bottom line. My male is one of the best socialized dogs on the planet (he works with me around other dogs almost every single day), but he will still fight with any dog who challenges him. Anyway, thats just my take on it. Michelle
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Post by Willow on Feb 27, 2004 11:46:13 GMT -5
;D You explain it so much better than I do, Michelle.
As long as a puppy is left in the litter until it is at least 6-7 weeks old (7 weeks being *ideal*), they have all the socialization with other dogs that they need. By then they know they are dogs and have learned bite inhibition (or is it bite HABITION?) etc. from the mother and siblings. It's the puppies that are taken from the litter at less than six weeks of age, by accident or an owner who is anxious to *get rid of them*, that have not learned how to be a well mannered puppy, and have not learned bite inhibition are the ones who have difficulties later in life, not only with other dogs, but with people.
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Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Feb 27, 2004 19:25:28 GMT -5
Ahhh, if I only had a dollar for every time I was at the dog park and heard the following phrase uttered (usually with tears).. "I am so sorry. I dont understand. My dog has never attacked any dog before." I would indeed be a wealthy man. I have seen many dogs get attacked and a half-assed apology that follows. I am not really into dog parks, then again my dogs are not into making new friends, if you know what I mean. There is a huge park in the Hollywood Hills that is beautiful. It sits on like 15 acres of land. I used to go quite frequently, but now when I go there for a hike, I leave the dogs at home. There are just too many variables there that I cant control. It is a shame though, it is beautiful. Here is a story about what happened a couple months ago at the park. I was walking Kira (Akita) and my girlfriend was walking Dexter. My dogs are never off-leash at the park, btw. Out of nowhere this off-leash Pug flies into Kira and starts attacking her, biting her on her side. Kira is pretty dog-aggressive, it doesnt matter if other dogs submit or not. My poor girl was just wriggling a bit and looking at me as if to say "Can I please have an early lunch?" Anyhow, the lady runs over after a good 25 seconds or so. She scoops her dog up into her arms. I didnt lay into the lady untill she uttered this phrase "Oh, Lady is just acting up. She is good with dogs, but sometimes she tries to attack big dogs." Hmmmm, if you know that your little dog has attacked big dogs in the past, would you let it be off-leash in a park with lots of big dogs? (Thes are the type of people that you must plan on encountering) I wish the story stopped there, but a half a minute later, the Pug slipped out of its owners arms and came back to attack Kira a SECOND time. I had not been so steamed in a long time This time Kira was not just taking it lightly. I had to hang her so she was standing on her hind legs otherwise it would have been game over for the pug. Anyhow, it ended up with me telling her to give me a big smooch you know where, and telling her to leash that dog at all times or else. Excellent point about being extra-careful going to the park off hours. At my park, there tends to be more aggressive dogs there at dusk or dawn. Here is a pic of the park. I took the pic, Christine is kneeling next to Kira on the right. Poor Kira was a couple pounds overweight back then. It is about a third of the way up to the top of the mountain. im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d933b3127cce8a81ebcffaef0000001610[/img]
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Post by Nicole on Feb 27, 2004 19:41:23 GMT -5
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Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Mar 1, 2004 11:49:34 GMT -5
Wow Jeff. All I can think to say without shouting obscenities at the stupid pug owner is that thankfully you are a responsible dog owner and you were able to safely intercept the problem. "She does good with dogs except sometimes she attacks big dogs"...hold me back That pug is going to be lunch to some dog someday when she runs into an owner with a big dog who is as clueless as she is. BTW, the park, your girlfriend and Kira are all lovely. Thanks Nicole. I was so mad, I wanted to start screaming at the top of my lungs, but I tried to keep somewhat cool to not agitate my dogs even more. Some people will never learn
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Post by Richard on Mar 1, 2004 12:57:26 GMT -5
Howdy Jeff...
Indeed, you did well....it makes you wonder where some people's heads are at when they're out with thier dogs.
Even if you said something to her, with a few %@@#$#* words tossed in for effect, I think you still woulda just seen a blank look....the deer in the headlight blank look...cuz regardless, you've got a big dog and its always always the big dogs fault (kinda like the butler always did it) when you are dealing with people like her or him or whoever.
Welcome to the board....
-Richard
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Jeff
puppy
Posts: 44
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Post by Jeff on Mar 1, 2004 18:46:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome Richard. I look forward to hearing about everyones dogs.
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Spastic & Lunkhead
puppy
-If you are going to do it... Get it done, do it right, and learn something from it.
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Post by Spastic & Lunkhead on Mar 7, 2004 13:22:45 GMT -5
I am mixed...
Durning the warmer weather we take our dogs to the dog park 2-3 times a week. Maggie- my boarder collie is a little jumpy around strangers so we have her on an e-collar for her own pertection. In all the time we have been we have not had any serious problems- though we have witnessed some poor ownership. The dog park in bloomington though is usually surrounded with dedicated owners and it is more of a club situation as we see the same people just about everytime we go. It is also cleaned and groomed once a week.
When a new person comes in they are usually informed of the rules and realize real quick that if they can't control their dog they need to leash it or leave.
Also- our park is attached to a lake which is awesome for Pagoda who loves to swim and get his ball (he is a Lab with dysplasia so it is hard for him to run but he can swim with the best of them).
I can understand the risks that everyone has stated and feel that dog parks need to be assesed on an indivdual basis. And if you see someone not controling their dog at the park don't be afraid to tell them the (unwritten rules). You would be surprised at how well this works. (Don't be afraid to leave if you are nervous about a particular person or dog, but come back and try again). The biggest problem we have is when newbies come and think they can run with their dogs. They get a little nervous when 15-50 dogs decide to run with them. =)
(The funniest thing about is that I know more people by their dogs name than I do by their own name.)
If you bring your dog to the dog park, like someone else said, be sure to have a strong come and we also taught our dogs proximity boundries meaning they know they only have about 50 yards of freedom from us. (Our Park is about 3 acres big and open).
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Post by Nicole on Mar 7, 2004 16:10:54 GMT -5
Although I don't like dog parks for the reasons stated, your park..3 acres with a lake...sounds like doggie heaven. The park in my area is a fenced in 1/4 acre of urine and poop soaked dirt. And there are too many dogs there at any given time for the size.
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Post by DarthVadersMum on Mar 21, 2004 1:00:34 GMT -5
We have a dog park opening anytime now. Unfortunately we won't be taking Vader. We took Vader to Doggie Daycare last summer when he was about 4-5 months old & 2 hours later when I called to check on him one of the other dogs gave him an open wound on his muzzle. It was horrible! I wouldn't take my dog to dog parks. Or go to them with my children. Meaning I hear a lot of people walk to the dog park with their children. I think people are just asking for something to happen or for a lawsuit!
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Post by boxerlover on Mar 21, 2004 9:38:49 GMT -5
DarhtVadersMum, I have the same worries. A dog park is opening here this spring too. I will check it out with my dogs on lead. My older dog Jack has been Nasty to some other dogs. Not all dogs just some dogs??? So??? I dunno???
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Post by Nicole on Mar 21, 2004 9:51:09 GMT -5
Darthvadersmom, I am so sorry that happened to your dog. I hope he recovered okay. Boxerlover, be very careful about going to the park with your dogs on lead. The other dogs are going to be running free and if your dog is fearful or aggressive he is going to act out on lead because he cannot flee. And if you let him drag the lead, he could get hurt if it tangles or snags on something. If Jack has been aggressive to other dogs, I definately would not put him in a dog park situation.
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Post by Willow on Mar 22, 2004 9:37:17 GMT -5
Nicki is right.
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Post by sibemom on Mar 22, 2004 15:07:52 GMT -5
I still think dog parks are an accident waiting to happen. I know my dog very well and even though he is not aggresive to other dogs when put in a free running situation like a dog park anything could happen. I still think it is better to find a group of freinds and just get together with them and their dogs rather than expose yours to strange dogs who you have no idea what their temps are. Why do people feel it is needed to allow your dogs to run with other dogs? I mean if the whole issue of NILIF training means something and they are suppose to depend on us for everything then why are dog parks needed. My dog gets plenty of excersise from going for walks, being outside in his kennel, and working. NOPE NO DOG PARK FOR US
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Post by Richard on Mar 24, 2004 0:01:11 GMT -5
I still believe, after seeing some of the posts for the positive sides of dog parks, that they are just, as sibemom put it, an accident waiting to happen....
If you are the fortunate type to be able to have a group of responsible dog owners in the area drop into the park then that is great and is certainly a bonus. Sadly, from what I have seen and heard, that is more the exception than the rule.
There are a lot of dog owners out there, and we talk about a lot of different attitudes here when it comes to training, who don't put any time into their dog and figure a dog park is the place for thier dog to run free and be with the pack....well, nice thought, but if your dog has no recall training, no manners, is an aggressive dog or the handler feels poop-scooping is for everyone else, then what I just described here is usually what I've seen at our dog parks...yes there is some control to a degree but people don't fill out a form to come in...they take the collar off thier dog and let 'em go...then go for a smoke and ignore thier dog for the next 20 or 30 minutes...
I'm sorry if I seem really negative, I don't mean to be but I put a lot of time and effort (not to mention money) into my dog and I'd hate to have him injured by someone's dog who has little or no training (and yes, it has happened) all in the name of "fun".
Call me overprotective, but I will also not let my daughter play in a park when I see big kids pushing around little kids for the equipment..where are the parents...oh, nearby having a smoke or a double moca fudge coffee and not paying attention....
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